Can SS with the right hardware rival Tivo?!?

[MooDoo]

I'm interested in a Tivo box but I don't want to get stuck with their inflexible solution. Can SS with the right hardware give me Tivo quality?!?

I am planning on having a dedicated pc next to my TV running only SS. The pc would probably be a P4 2.4, 512MB RAM, 120GB HD, GeForceFX 5200 128MB, NVDVD, PVR-250, WinXP. We have no plans to stream shows to other pcs, we just want to record shows, watch recorded shows and use the live-tv/timeshifting feature.

Questions:
- Will this setup give me clean crisp live-tv/timeshifting and recordings?

- Is there any advantage to using the FX card with TV-Out or is the base FX card fine? I'm not sure how/why people would use this when they already have the pvr-250.

- My understanding is that with this setup I can only record one show at a time but that I can use the live-tv/timeshifting functionality while another show is being recorded. Is this true?

- How stable (system crashes, dropped frames, etc.) would this setup be with ss v3.2?

- If I buy v3.2 of ss, are all future 3.x releases free with the 4.x releases requiring me to pay to upgrade? Any idea on the major features expected during the next year?

- I could also dedicate a PII 450, 384MB RAM with the same components listed above but I assume that it wouldn't be enough horse-power, correct?

- Any comments on SageTV or ShowShifter? The main reason I have focused on SnapStream is feedback that is available on this board. Getting help/feedback on the other products seems much harder.

Please let me know if I'm missing anything else? Thanks in advance for your advice!!!

[RobertH]

Originally posted by MooDoo
I'm interested in a Tivo box but I don't want to get stuck with their inflexible solution. Can SS with the right hardware give me Tivo quality?!?

I am planning on having a dedicated pc next to my TV running only SS. The pc would probably be a P4 2.4, 512MB RAM, 120GB HD, GeForceFX 5200 128MB, NVDVD, PVR-250, WinXP. We have no plans to stream shows to other pcs, we just want to record shows, watch recorded shows and use the live-tv/timeshifting feature.

Questions:
- Will this setup give me clean crisp live-tv/timeshifting and recordings?

Yep I use a lower powered box (see sig) and both of my machines give extreemly good video most of wich I use to burn dvd-video to archive my important shows

- Is there any advantage to using the FX card with TV-Out or is the base FX card fine? I'm not sure how/why people would use this when they already have the pvr-250.

not quite following you on this one? If your tv has a progressive input (dvi/component) then go with a card with dvi and svideo otherwise just get one that has vga and svideo the nvidia card will boot directly to the svideo connector if there is no display connected to any other connector. the pvr250 is a capture device it has no output, the 350 has video out but it only works when using the wintv software from hauppauge

- My understanding is that with this setup I can only record one show at a time but that I can use the live-tv/timeshifting functionality while another show is being recorded. Is this true?

yes you can watch a video file from your local archive at the same time the system is recording, timeshifting works on mpeg for livetv and recordings, and also works in windows media mode but only during playback. In the future there will hopefully be support for dual tuners as it has been one of the most requested features

- How stable (system crashes, dropped frames, etc.) would this setup be with ss v3.2?

I keep my 800mhz box up all the time it is always sitting at the ss fullscreen main menu unless i have to get to the desktop to use the dvd burner. the only crashes I have with snapstream are when I try to use the pvr on channel 3 it has issues with my cable modem because that is the upstream channel and when there is a lot of activity it causes the encoder on the pvr to crash occasionally this will later (1-2 hours) cause snapstream to crash while changing channels. other than that it records about 9 times aday and doesnt cause any problems, the machine is also a webserver and a database server

- If I buy v3.2 of ss, are all future 3.x releases free with the 4.x releases requiring me to pay to upgrade? Any idea on the major features expected during the next year?

I have been a user and a beta tester since version 1.5 since then they have not charged for any major update from one version to the next, 3.0 was in beta testing for almost a year from what I remember, but during testing releases occur about every 3-5 weeks depending on how much in-house testing they have to perform. Some of the features that have been tossed around are dvdplayback, mouse support, dual tuners, a programmers/developers api interface, HDTV support, and a whole slew of other stuff. There isnt a solid timeline/feature list released to the public/beta testers.

- I could also dedicate a PII 450, 384MB RAM with the same components listed above but I assume that it wouldn't be enough horse-power, correct?

this would be enough horse power to do recordings but would probably die during playback, however with a home network you would be able to share the store from one machine on the dedicated tv box and then you could play the files over the network

- Any comments on SageTV or ShowShifter? The main reason I have focused on SnapStream is feedback that is available on this board. Getting help/feedback on the other products seems much harder.

Ive used showshifter before and couldnt stand the horrible interface but that was a while ago so dont know if any of the issues Ive had with them, and I didnt try sage because of the whole no listings for 90% of the country

Please let me know if I'm missing anything else? Thanks in advance for your advice!!!

[MooDoo]

Thanks for all of the advice!!! For some reason, I thought the pvr-250 was being used for both input and output. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'll try and post back my experience once I get things up and running.

[Bruce Lowekamp]

I have a AMD XP1700, PVR250, and an Nvidia card with the NvDVD decoder.

It's pretty close to my Tivo. I haven't quite found the magic mpeg parameters that make it look quite as good as Tivo's "best". Maybe they don't exist. But it's pretty close.

In some ways it's better than Tivo---I can move recordings around (I store some on spare space on other PCs), recompress them to save space. The network scheduling is included. I fundamentally like having the option of a standard grid programming interface. I think the conflict resolution is better, although I'm still searching for the holy grail system that will inform me of a conflict that arises months after I create the season pass.

In some ways the Tivo interface is nicer. It's a lot simpler to use, and the options aren't hidden under obscure settings. The downside of the snapstream program interface+web interface+snapstream.net is that you can do different things in different interfaces. The web interface is the most powerful---you have to remember to go to it when you can't do what you want in the program.

I haven't had snapstream for that long, but I'm impressed. I'm still using it as a backup/conflict resolver for my Tivo, though. I'm really hoping they start supporting HDTV tuner cards soon...

Bruce

[Rich A]

For RobertH,

I noticed you mentioned the PVR-350 TV-out only works with the supplied player ?? I have a PVR-250 and made the mistake of putting it in an early model shuttle box (the Athlon 266 FSB thing with the SIS video on board)

I found that the SnapStream would not work with full screen or windowed (you may remember an earlier post from me about it) output with that video chip set. Most likely because it doesn't properly support 3d acceleration.

So I ordered up the later SN41G2 (with the Nvidia built in video) While at it, I got the PVR-350.

I was hoping to use the TV-out of the PVR-350 not for streaming but for playback into a modultor that is feeding a whole house A/V distribution panel. (Channel 84 will be my SnapStream / PVR channel)

I guess I have two ways to go .. either use the TV out of the Nvidia chip set on the mobo or the TV out of the PVR-350. I have heard of problems with over-scan and getting proper TV display with some of the older Nvidia cards. This mobo based chip set is of course pretty new. Which do you think would be the best set up for me? I'm hoping to access the SnapStream full screen output on channel 84 and be able to navigate and choose to playback previously recorded mpegs.

So far, with a small Duron 1K and the PVR 250 I've been very pleased, (albeit I can't use the windowed or full screen mode of the SnapStream) I'm hoping the PVR 350 or the new Shuttle Nvidia box's video chipset will help there.

Yes, I know I could just try both myself. But I haven't gotten all the parts yet and thought you may be able to give me some insight so I would know what to expect. Thanks ..

Rich

[RobertH]

well the pvr350's video out only works when using the wintv app to playback and it only works for mpeg files. your best bet is to use the svideo out on the nvidia card/chipset, while overscan is nice for the picture getting rid of the black border and all (works on all nvidia from the gf4 and above) but because the interface for snapstream was designed on a computer monitor without overscan in mind if you enable overscan you will loose part of the interface

also the only competitor to use the pvr-350's out to my knowledge is sage tv and when using it for output the overlay/interface doesnt doesnt come out of the video port just the video itself.

[Rich A]

Originally posted by RobertH
well the pvr350's video out only works when using the wintv app to playback and it only works for mpeg files. your best bet is to use the svideo out on the nvidia card/chipset, while overscan is nice for the picture getting rid of the black border and all (works on all nvidia from the gf4 and above) but because the interface for snapstream was designed on a computer monitor without overscan in mind if you enable overscan you will loose part of the interface

also the only competitor to use the pvr-350's out to my knowledge is sage tv and when using it for output the overlay/interface doesnt doesnt come out of the video port just the video itself.

Thanks Bob,

Good information. I guess in hindsight I probably could have made do with the PVR-250 and only needed to change the Shuttle box model for the one with the NVidia video chipset. .

But then I also hope to be able to use a 3rd party software product that will use the 350's radio to record some radio shows.

I've read elsewhere here about the 350 not having the same encoder as the 250. Something about more heat. That's not a big problem for me, but the quality of the mpeg encoding is of great importance. I hope the compatibility is the same as the 250. ie. (S)VCD and DVD properly multiplexed program streams.

Just did a tracking of the shipment of goods, and they should be here tomorrow. Lot's to play with.

Thanks again, Rich

[RobertH]

from what I have read in the SHS forums the 350 does have a small heat problem and has a tendancy that if the chip gets too hot that it will loose sync, you may be able to get some thermal epoxy and a 386/486 cpu fan from radio shack or something similar and use the thermal epoxy to mount the heatsink onto the one chip that gets hot and slap a small cpu fan onto the heatsink that should keep it cool although if the SFF case can keep the whole thing cool it shouldnt have any problems

[Rich A]

Originally posted by RobertH
from what I have read in the SHS forums the 350 does have a small heat problem and has a tendancy that if the chip gets too hot that it will loose sync, you may be able to get some thermal epoxy and a 386/486 cpu fan from radio shack or something similar and use the thermal epoxy to mount the heatsink onto the one chip that gets hot and slap a small cpu fan onto the heatsink that should keep it cool although if the SFF case can keep the whole thing cool it shouldnt have any problems

Good idea Bob. I should have the 350 here before 4 pm today. So I'll have both the 250 and 350 side by side to compare. I'm also wondering if the extra heat may just be because some added hardware components and power requirments needed to support the decoding and FM radio hardware/chips etc.

I will surely get back here and post my findings. Now where the heck is that Fed-X guy? That doggone pot never boils while I'm watching it.

[cmasters]

The 350 uses the older 15 version of the MPEG2 encoder. This was much hotter - to a point that some people claim their boards had hardware failure after some time. Older 250's and I believe all 350's use this. Newer 250's use the 16 verison of the encoder. It runs much cooler.

Keep in mind that if you have a 250 and a 350 with different encoders you may have some driver issues installing both in the same machine. SnapStream does not support multi-tuner nor does the bundled Hauppauge WinTV so you would not be able to test with that method anyway.

BTW, I run with three of the older 250's in my machine and while it does run hot it has not failed yet

[Rich A]

Originally posted by cmasters
The 350 uses the older 15 version of the MPEG2 encoder. This was much hotter - to a point that some people claim their boards had hardware failure after some time. Older 250's and I believe all 350's use this. Newer 250's use the 16 verison of the encoder. It runs much cooler.

Keep in mind that if you have a 250 and a 350 with different encoders you may have some driver issues installing both in the same machine. SnapStream does not support multi-tuner nor does the bundled Hauppauge WinTV so you would not be able to test with that method anyway.

BTW, I run with three of the older 250's in my machine and while it does run hot it has not failed yet

Wow, that's pretty disappointing for me. I can run both side by side and compare without a problem. The 250 is currently running just fine albeit without full screen playback. The new Shuttle box should take care of that. I guess the only "advantage" of the 350 may be the built in TV out and it's on board FM radio. The FM radio was just icing on the cake for me, but the mpeg of course is very important. If the reliabilty and/or quality of the 350 is going to be sub par when compared to the 250, I may just stick with the 250. I'll have to test for sure.

Thanks for the valued input. - Rich

[cmasters]

My friend runs an older 250 and a newer 250 and we can't tell any kind of video quality difference. And again neither have had failures and mine have run 24/7 for the last several months recording on both simultaneously almost constantly. Not problems yet (fingers crossed?)

The 350 has the FM tuner which is kind of nice. The output is not exactly TV out but MPEG2 decoder out only. That is nice since all decoding is done by that and not the CPU (so you could get almost no CPU usage when watching an MPEG2 file). Snapstream does not support that either. But you can try that with the WinTV app.

[Rich A]

Originally posted by cmasters
My friend runs an older 250 and a newer 250 and we can't tell any kind of video quality difference. And again neither have had failures and mine have run 24/7 for the last several months recording on both simultaneously almost constantly. Not problems yet (fingers crossed?)

The 350 has the FM tuner which is kind of nice. The output is not exactly TV out but MPEG2 out only. Snapstream does not support that either. But you can try that with the WinTV app.

It's amazing the amount of qualified information (from hands on) here in a forum as opposed to the manufacturer's own technical staff. I have three emails to Hauppauge going back over the last three weeks and have not heard from then yet.

I shudda come here first. <grin>

I find most manufacturers gear their available information to the public with the slant towards the lowest common denominator. When you have valid, more advanced queries based on technical issues you usally find very little detailed information. Fine for the "plug and pray" crowd, but for the techno-geeks very lacking.

Not complaining .. just an observation.

- Rich

[dfy]

Rick A: what Shuttle box did you have with the SIS chipset?

Because I have a SS40G, and I also had the same problem, but with the latest SIS drivers for Windows XP (2.18, but I think it started to work with 2.17), it all works like a dream!

Remember to first install your video drivers, second DirectX 9.0b

[Rich A]

Originally posted by dfy
Rick A: what Shuttle box did you have with the SIS chipset?

Because I have a SS40G, and I also had the same problem, but with the latest SIS drivers for Windows XP (2.18, but I think it started to work with 2.17), it all works like a dream!

Remember to first install your video drivers, second DirectX 9.0b

Actually it's a Shuttle OEM box re-badged by someone else. I'll check when I get home. I do have the latest SIS video drivers. But this was a Windows 2000 system.

As I recall it was an SK something (Athlon based) I'll give another look at it. I've already replaced it with the new high end Shuttle box that has the NVidia video. (works great) Thanks for the tip. I'll check it again.