Planning major upgrade... does BTV support the ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner?

[noodleNT]

I am starting to consider my next HTPC upgrade. I am thinking about using Windows 7 once released and going with the ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner so I wont have to deal with IR transmiters or Firewire\cable box hacks to change channels on these 4 cable boxes sitting under my TV. Oh.. and HD... lots and lots of trouble free HD!!

That said, does Snapstream already support the ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable cards or is this something we need to wait for?

Also planning to go full 64-bit OS this time around.

Great How To here:
How to install a CableCARD tuner in your DIY Media Center

[MickP]

Originally Posted by noodleNT

I am starting to consider my next HTPC upgrade. I am thinking about using Windows 7 once released and going with the ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner so I wont have to deal with IR transmiters or Firewire\cable box hacks to change channels on these 4 cable boxes sitting under my TV. Oh.. and HD... lots and lots of trouble free HD!!

That said, does Snapstream already support the ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable cards or is this something we need to wait for?

Also planning to go full 64-bit OS this time around.

Great How To here:
How to install a CableCARD tuner in your DIY Media Center

Erm, no. Assuming that this is an OCCUR tuner/card that you're referring to, it's not likely to happen. You'd be looking for an HD PVR or migrating to Vista/Win7 media centre.

Brent has an article re: a special on the HD PVR over at Geek Tonic at the moment.

Mick.

[ChefJoe]

Comcast in my area is switching over to digital channels except for the local network stations. Once they get permission to use those DTA boxes' encryption function (again, showing the ban on devices with encyption not provided via cablecard has no teeth) you will need to have some sort of cable box to handle the decyption for channels other than the local stations.

This will be a pain in the rear, particularly since each DTA box currently being deployed by comcast responds to the same, recent-standard remote control codes.

The HD-PVR won't solve this issue, only a cablecard solution (none supported by BeyondTV) or clear QAM broadcasts remaining (via not allowing the DTA waivers) will solve the impending problem.

[NickHark]

Originally Posted by ChefJoe

Comcast in my area is switching over to digital channels except for the local network stations. Once they get permission to use those DTA boxes' encryption function (again, showing the ban on devices with encyption not provided via cablecard has no teeth) you will need to have some sort of cable box to handle the decyption for channels other than the local stations.

This will be a pain in the rear, particularly since each DTA box currently being deployed by comcast responds to the same, recent-standard remote control codes.

The HD-PVR won't solve this issue, only a cablecard solution (none supported by BeyondTV) or clear QAM broadcasts remaining (via not allowing the DTA waivers) will solve the impending problem.

Here's my 2 cents: Comcast will continue to send most non-ppv signals in Clear QAM. The locals (mandated by FCC regs) will be in HD (720/1080i) Other expanded basic channels will be SD (480). That's why the standard digital cable box that you have now will continue to receive all of you expanded basic channels. If you have a digital TV, with a QAM tuner, you can immediately see that Comcast isn't depriving you of your channels. Comcast, here in San Jose, suggests that you get one of their digital boxes (either a STB or converter) even if you have a QAM capable TV so that the channel NUMBERS will conform to their program guide channels. This problem is obviously solved by BTV when you use the setup wizard and match the QAM channel with the EPG. Comcast is not going to obsolete the hundreds of thousands of digital STBs that are out there by encrypting non-local expanded basic channels currently in SD.

I think too much hand wringing is going on about the Comcast cable conversion.

The only reason to need to buy more stuff is to get ppv or, in my case, The Golf Channel, in HD.

[ChefJoe]

Originally Posted by NickHark

Here's my 2 cents: Comcast will continue to send most non-ppv signals in Clear QAM. The locals (mandated by FCC regs) will be in HD (720/1080i) Other expanded basic channels will be SD (480). That's why the standard digital cable box that you have now will continue to receive all of you expanded basic channels. If you have a digital TV, with a QAM tuner, you can immediately see that Comcast isn't depriving you of your channels. Comcast, here in San Jose, suggests that you get one of their digital boxes (either a STB or converter) even if you have a QAM capable TV so that the channel NUMBERS will conform to their program guide channels. This problem is obviously solved by BTV when you use the setup wizard and match the QAM channel with the EPG. Comcast is not going to obsolete the hundreds of thousands of digital STBs that are out there by encrypting non-local expanded basic channels currently in SD.

I think too much hand wringing is going on about the Comcast cable conversion.

The only reason to need to buy more stuff is to get ppv or, in my case, The Golf Channel, in HD.

NickHark, in my area Comcast is ceasing many of those expanded basic analog channels and putting them in digital QAM. For now they're also broadcast in clear QAM (and happy with my BeyondTV setup) but Pace has applied for an integrated encyption ban waiver to enable it on their cheap DTA boxes (digital QAM to SD analog output box). Comcast wants that waiver so they can reclaim analog space and create a system of cable distribution that won't rely on site visits for filters to adjust what a customer receives. For those expanded basic channels, Comcast is obsoleting any equipment that doesn't have a comcast-provided decryption element.

To understand what's happening with comcast's digital conversion in many markets you can look at dslreports.com's comcast forum for DTA threads or, for Seattle, this guy has a rather simple explanation for the local media.
Brier Dudley | Comcast digital switch stirs more questions | Seattle Times Newspaper

Suburbs of Seattle have already switched over and require DTA boxes (more basic than standard cableboxes) for those channels like Lifetime or MTV. Seattle is supposed to do so in the fall. My BeyondTV/Snapstream PVR box will need to be updated with IR Blasters to continue to work.

[NickHark]

Originally Posted by ChefJoe

NickHark, in my area Comcast is ceasing many of those expanded basic analog channels and putting them in digital QAM. For now they're also broadcast in clear QAM (and happy with my BeyondTV setup) but Pace has applied for an integrated encyption ban waiver to enable it on their cheap DTA boxes (digital QAM to SD analog output box). Comcast wants that waiver so they can reclaim analog space and create a system of cable distribution that won't rely on site visits for filters to adjust what a customer receives. For those expanded basic channels, Comcast is obsoleting any equipment that doesn't have a comcast-provided decryption element.

To understand what's happening with comcast's digital conversion in many markets you can look at dslreports.com's comcast forum for DTA threads or, for Seattle, this guy has a rather simple explanation for the local media.
Brier Dudley | Comcast digital switch stirs more questions | Seattle Times Newspaper

Suburbs of Seattle have already switched over and require DTA boxes (more basic than standard cableboxes) for those channels like Lifetime or MTV. Seattle is supposed to do so in the fall. My BeyondTV/Snapstream PVR box will need to be updated with IR Blasters to continue to work.

I think the Seattle guy is wrong when he suggests that "you need a box to receive the expanded basic channels after the switch," because you won't with BTV.

That's my point, the SD channels are being sent as digital SD channels now and my QAM tuners, including the ones in my TVs don't need anything from Comcast, except their signals. My Comcast STB that came with my expanded basic service will properly handle the digital SD signals just fine. (I don't even use it.)

Nothing needs to be done if you receive Comcast clear QAM channels now. I receive Lifetime and MTV now, in clear QAM SD.

IMO, if you subscribe to mere basic cable, you would still get these local HD and expanded basic SD signals in digital format, (including Lifetime and MTV) which you can record with BTV.

I remember reading in these forums some time ago, that someone is doing just that.

I am sure that the cable companies love all this confusion among the heathens about encryption and these bogus threats.

[ChefJoe]

NickHark, as being broadcast in seattle right now, that guy is wrong (plenty of channels are in clear QAM) but once Comcast/Pace get the waiver to enable encryption, the whole point of the DTA adapters (not cableboxes) is to send anything that's not in the limited basic package as encrypted QAM. So, right now, your QAM tuners are fine (as mine are with Comcast), but if your service provider goes through this transition you may need to start using IR blasters and cable boxes or cablecard devices.

If the OP is planning a major upgrade he may want to seriously consider Windows MCE/7 and the ATI adapter that takes a cablecard if he wants to keep getting all expanded cable channels. Sticking with BeyondTV may become very tricky without supporting cablecard devices.

Comcast DTA Adaptor Boxes Not Working For Me - AVS Forum
Originally Posted by viking6
Please help me understand why DTA's are needed if I have Digital Tuner HDTV's?
Well, you would need a Comcast box if they encrypt channels, but for what they send in the clear (which you've found to be digital HD channels like ABC-HD) the digital tuner will work just fine.

But it depends on what they send in the clear. Looks like the Akai's QAM (digital cable) tuner picks up what is in the clear. The networks should stay that way, but others might get encrypted at the whim of Comcast.

They aren't allowed to encrypt anything that you would need a DTA to receive (yet).

Or maybe you'd believe it straight from Comcast ?
Comcast: FAQs
32. Will I need equipment if I have a digital TV with a QAM tuner?
At the completion of the digital upgrade, customers will need equipment on all TVs to receive any channels above the Limited Basic level of service—of course, this is now the case with most video providers, including our satellite and phone competitors. We’re encouraging all customers to avoid any service interruptions by installing and using the equipment provided by Comcast or purchased from their electronics retailer, like a TiVo or CableCardTM enabled device.

Brier Dudley's blog | FAQs on Comcast digital switcheroo (update 5 - more QAM and Ch. 25-Cspan2) | Seattle Times Newspaper Blog
Q: Will this affect setups with a Media Center PC connected to a TV? (NEW)

A: Sometimes. Kipp's still gathering info on this, but said Microsoft is now working on it with Comcast. His answer: "From what I understand so far, there are some situations where the digital adapter would work with a media center and some where it would not ... In any event, please keep in mind that each customer also will receive a much more advanced digital set top box at no extra charge in addition to the two digital adapters. The advanced set top box should work with a PC Media Center. In addition, we are working with Microsoft on this issue."

Q: What about TVs with QAM tuners - can they get signals directly from the cable? (NEW)

A: No. "They would need a digital adapter, a standard set top box (DCT) or a CableCard in order to view the channels," Kipp said. "The first CableCard is free with each additional CableCard costing $1.79 per month." This is because the signals will be scrambled/encrypted, and a device from Comcast is needed to descramble them.

[NickHark]

Originally Posted by ChefJoe

NickHark, as being broadcast in seattle right now, that guy is wrong (plenty of channels are in clear QAM) but once Comcast/Pace get the waiver to enable encryption, the whole point of the DTA adapters (not cableboxes) is to send anything that's not in the limited basic package as encrypted QAM. So, right now, your QAM tuners are fine (as mine are with Comcast), but if your service provider goes through this transition you may need to start using IR blasters and cable boxes or cablecard devices.

If the OP is planning a major upgrade he may want to seriously consider Windows MCE/7 and the ATI adapter that takes a cablecard if he wants to keep getting all expanded cable channels. Sticking with BeyondTV may become very tricky without supporting cablecard devices.

Comcast DTA Adaptor Boxes Not Working For Me - AVS Forum
Originally Posted by viking6
Please help me understand why DTA's are needed if I have Digital Tuner HDTV's?
Well, you would need a Comcast box if they encrypt channels, but for what they send in the clear (which you've found to be digital HD channels like ABC-HD) the digital tuner will work just fine.

But it depends on what they send in the clear. Looks like the Akai's QAM (digital cable) tuner picks up what is in the clear. The networks should stay that way, but others might get encrypted at the whim of Comcast.

They aren't allowed to encrypt anything that you would need a DTA to receive (yet).

Or maybe you'd believe it straight from Comcast ?
Comcast: FAQs
32. Will I need equipment if I have a digital TV with a QAM tuner?
At the completion of the digital upgrade, customers will need equipment on all TVs to receive any channels above the Limited Basic level of service—of course, this is now the case with most video providers, including our satellite and phone competitors. We’re encouraging all customers to avoid any service interruptions by installing and using the equipment provided by Comcast or purchased from their electronics retailer, like a TiVo or CableCardTM enabled device.

Brier Dudley's blog | FAQs on Comcast digital switcheroo (update 5 - more QAM and Ch. 25-Cspan2) | Seattle Times Newspaper Blog
Q: Will this affect setups with a Media Center PC connected to a TV? (NEW)

A: Sometimes. Kipp's still gathering info on this, but said Microsoft is now working on it with Comcast. His answer: "From what I understand so far, there are some situations where the digital adapter would work with a media center and some where it would not ... In any event, please keep in mind that each customer also will receive a much more advanced digital set top box at no extra charge in addition to the two digital adapters. The advanced set top box should work with a PC Media Center. In addition, we are working with Microsoft on this issue."

Q: What about TVs with QAM tuners - can they get signals directly from the cable? (NEW)

A: No. "They would need a digital adapter, a standard set top box (DCT) or a CableCard in order to view the channels," Kipp said. "The first CableCard is free with each additional CableCard costing $1.79 per month." This is because the signals will be scrambled/encrypted, and a device from Comcast is needed to descramble them.

Until Comcast encrypts all channels but the locals no additional equipment is needed to get 480p SD channels.

There is no guarantee that they will encrypt all the channels. (IMO they won't)

I'm worn out making the same point over and over.

[ChefJoe]

Ok, so your point is basically that, in your opinion, the future of comcast will not involve enabling encryption on those clear QAM SD expanded basic channels.

My point is that the media reports, comcast's stated gameplan, and many of the actions being taken (Thomson, Pace seek DTA waivers from FCC , Cisco, Moto Seek DTA Waivers - 2009-06-17 22:30:12 EDT | Multichannel News ) suggest that they're working to make that happen. The areas around me have comcast setting people up with free DTA boxes that, at the flip of a switch and a granted FCC waiver, will allow comcast to finish a transition to encrypt those expanded channels. I don't think they'd be giving away DTA adapters for free (even to people with clear QAM capable TVs) unless they had every intention of going down that road.

To be honest, I _hope_ you're right Nick and none of this privacy mode/encrypted QAM plan happens. Right now I'm getting all the clear QAM channels on my $10/month limited basic cable plan, a little bonus for putting up with the odd channel numbers and mapping them.

Responding to the OP, again, the suggested HD-PVR or any other clear-QAM tuner (like your HD HomeRun) will work great for now, but if those waivers are granted and your cable provider follows that route, you will need IR blasters and a cable box of some sort or BeyondTV will need to develop support for a CableCard-type device (they don't currently and I have my concerns that the design of BeyondTV's capturing is not compatible with CableCard content protection specs). IMHO, I wouldn't invest in any new hardware if your area is anywhere along this possible transition path.

Perhaps calling it a single switchover is a part of the confusion. As it's unfolding now, Phase 1 of the switch is transitioning those expanded basic channels to digital, and the looming threat of Phase 2 is enabling the encryption. Don't wear yourself out by repeating what is the status now if the OP is asking about a future build.

First DTA dongle market identified: Portland, OR - dslreports.com
Comcast COO Steve Burke later downplayed concerns that the DTAs will provide access to the operator's expanded basic digital signals without encryption -- at least for the foreseeable future.
"In many senses, it (digital video fed through DTAs) will be more secure than the analog distribution," Burke said. "We will not be using encryption initially, and that's fine in terms of our programming contracts." Those DTAs, however, could activate so-called "privacy mode" encryption via a firmware upgrade, but doing so could force the operator to seek out a special set-top waiver from the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) . (See Comcast's DTAs: Security Optional .)

[MickP]

Originally Posted by ChefJoe

Comcast in my area is switching over to digital channels except for the local network stations. Once they get permission to use those DTA boxes' encryption function (again, showing the ban on devices with encyption not provided via cablecard has no teeth) you will need to have some sort of cable box to handle the decyption for channels other than the local stations.

This will be a pain in the rear, particularly since each DTA box currently being deployed by comcast responds to the same, recent-standard remote control codes.

The HD-PVR won't solve this issue, only a cablecard solution (none supported by BeyondTV) or clear QAM broadcasts remaining (via not allowing the DTA waivers) will solve the impending problem.

What? I don't understand. Will the cable boxes be outputting only hdmi (no component). What aspect of the new boxes will defeat the hd-pvr?

Mick.

[ChefJoe]

If comcast goes the route of migrating most of the non-locals to digital and then encrypting all those expanded digital channels then, in order to be able to record all the channels, your BeyondTV box needs something from the cable company to handle the decryption for each channel as you need it.

With BeyondTV as it stands now, that will mean an IR blaster and separate cable box for each tuner. As someone who has avoided extra hardware and IR blasters before, I find this more than a bit annoying. This would also decrease the functionality of many dual tuner cards (like the 2250) because the cable box will only decrypt one channel at a time.

Without enabling encryption, the picture is much more friendly for all the BeyondTV tuners that support clear QAM. As for the HD-PVR, it looks like that device has always required an IR blaster to tune the cable box. In that regard, the HD-PVR users won't see any big shift.

For what it's worth, there are many boxes from the cable company but the one Comcast has been pushing in my area is the Pace DC50X which only outputs an RF feed. Get your nice digital channels spat out in 480i only. Picasa Web Albums - ViRGE - Comcast DTA U...

[NickHark]

Originally Posted by MickP

What? I don't understand. Will the cable boxes be outputting only hdmi (no component). What aspect of the new boxes will defeat the hd-pvr?

Mick.

ChefJoe, while probably well-intentioned, talks as if what he envisions is going to happen soon.

I disagree, and believe that if he is right, it won't happen for years. We'll have new PCs and cards and BTVs by this time. The Comcast-cable-ship is too large to turn on a dime.

[TomXP411]

I think ALL of you have missed the point of the original question.

The link in the original post shows that you can use the ATI tuner on non-proprietary machines. It just takes a special bootloader that fools the ATI drivers in to thinking you're running a compatible machine.

But the answer is probably still "no, you can't use the ATI box," since it undboutedly requires special support inside of Media Center - support that BTV can't offer.

[MickP]

Originally Posted by TomXP411

I think ALL of you have missed the point of the original question.

The link in the original post shows that you can use the ATI tuner on non-proprietary machines. It just takes a special bootloader that fools the ATI drivers in to thinking you're running a compatible machine.

But the answer is probably still "no, you can't use the ATI box," since it undboutedly requires special support inside of Media Center - support that BTV can't offer.

I don't think that I missed this point at all :P

Mick.

[noodleNT]

HEHE... I figured to just let you guys run with it.