Netflix Streaming

[bnflaherty]

Originally Posted by rugby

I just use Vista MC as a front end and get Netflix streaming no problem. I use BTV for tv.

No problems at all.

That had been my solution until that machine decided to not boot up anymore..

My new build has 7 .. which apparently MS decided to not allow access to their new Netflix applet..

Installing the older Netflix app soon... Works better anyway -- lol

[Brayan12]

Snapstream users have never experienced this though I suppose. It would be a good idea for SS to provide netflix integration imho though admittedly I'm not passionate about it as I can't access the service from (here) outside the US.

[rugby]

Originally Posted by bnflaherty

That had been my solution until that machine decided to not boot up anymore..

My new build has 7 .. which apparently MS decided to not allow access to their new Netflix applet..

Installing the older Netflix app soon... Works better anyway -- lol

The Netflix quality is okay for older movies, but for anything newer the quality kinda sucks. Skipping, and frame dropping all over the place. I never had this problem using a 3rd party VMC plugin and the older WMV streaming that Netflix had. Silverlight sucks, the quality sucks, the jagged video sucks.

I have a 16Mbps download connection, I should be able to have better quality than VHS tapes.

My young kids don't care about the quality, their cartoons look okay to them.

[koan00]

I just got a new windows update last night for SliverStream. It says it adresses some performance issues. I have not had time to test, but it looks promising

[seeker_ktf]

I installed Silverlight 3 a while back but I didn't see any change to Nexflix streaming (at least not in Firefox.) I was all excited with they said they were going to have 3D acceleration in it but all of that didn't seem to matter at all to the video performance. On my HTPC, I have an LED readout on the front that allows me to monitor CPU performance and CPU/GPU temperatures. Streaming a movie through my browser from Netflix uses waaaaay more CPU than it does to play a BluRay movie through PowerDVD. It's obvious from the GPU readings that Silverlight doesn't use and of the hardware optimizations available there. It's all CPU. Stupid.

Plus, the Netflix streaming is subject to lots of horizontal tearing if you use XP. Basically, you'll see a lot of horizontal discontinuity on the picture during a lot of horizontal panning. I have a big TV and I sit closer than I probably should, but still, the tearing is pretty bad. Comparatively, the Roku player is awesome. (I have one in another room of the house.) I really don't know how they can make a profit on this thing at $99, considering all the stuff they put into it (wireless and wired ethernet, HDMI, component, S-video, and composite video, along with digital optical and analog audio outputs.) Obviously, the video components can't be *that* great but there's no tearing. I completely blame Microsoft for this... they apparently don't want to hook into all of the video processing capabilities that most PCs have access to. I can't imagine why.

SO anyway, my point is... even if you get it to work without a keyboard, it still isn't all that great. :/

[Rich A]

If you have a fast enough broadband connection watching a Netflix streaming video is pretty good. Guests in my home theater can't see any difference between a Netflix show and a DVD. And neither can I.

[seeker_ktf]

I have better than 6mbit down. This is NOT a bandwidth issue. As I said, the Roku Player works really well. It's just a Silverlight problem. I don't want to start a big "M$ stinks and all they do is evil" thread, since I basically own almost all the software that they put out It's just that in the case of Silverlight, they have a lot to do. I'm not even convinced that Silverlight is worse than Flash... I think that both of them are pretty substandard for video, given the kind of potential hardware accelerations that most computers have.

But more to the point... what are you playing the Netflix streaming on?? Exact configuration. Windows XP? Mac? Wat sice TV? Are you going out at 1080p, 720p? etc? If you are using XP and can help me wipe out my tearing problem using Silverlight you would be pretty much a hero... not just for me but for a lot of people.

[Harold]

I've been unable to find a solution for the tearing when running the Vista MC Netflix plugin. I get acceptable playback in Internet Explorer 8. It's frustrating to have to grab the keyboard when I want use Netflix. The VMC plugin has a nice remote control friendly interface.

I really don't understand why it works fine in IE8 and not with VMC. I would assume that MS would use the same components to run it in VMC as with IE8.

My DSL connection is not the best in the world, but I don't think it's a bandwidth issue.

[vidiot1985]

Until I read the posting saying it works well in IE8 but not VMC, I was thinking Silverlight doesn't use all the hardware acceleration/optimization/etc. as much as something like PowerDVD might because it's a multli-platform thing (I guess Netflix went to it to placate the Mac users who were upset they weren't able to get the streaming via the older, better looking Windows Media stuff???).

But now, I don't know.

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by seeker_ktf

I have better than 6mbit down. This is NOT a bandwidth issue. As I said, the Roku Player works really well. It's just a Silverlight problem. I don't want to start a big "M$ stinks and all they do is evil" thread, since I basically own almost all the software that they put out It's just that in the case of Silverlight, they have a lot to do. I'm not even convinced that Silverlight is worse than Flash... I think that both of them are pretty substandard for video, given the kind of potential hardware accelerations that most computers have.

But more to the point... what are you playing the Netflix streaming on?? Exact configuration. Windows XP? Mac? Wat sice TV? Are you going out at 1080p, 720p? etc? If you are using XP and can help me wipe out my tearing problem using Silverlight you would be pretty much a hero... not just for me but for a lot of people.

6 mbit is pretty low. I have on average 24 mbit. Yes, it's a high speed fibre optic system and I subscribe to the highest speed the ISP offers.

I'm using XP Prof. in a very much set up and dedicated PC designed to be a replacement for the three ReplayTV boxes I used to have. (like a Tivo)

The old HTPC which was just replaced after six years of 24/7 operation also ran Netflix quite well. I think the answer for most of your questions is in my sig.

I'm watching pretty large screen .. It has a home built motorized moving screen and masking system that can be adjusted for any aspect ratio. So depending on whether I'm watching a wide screen, letterbox or old 4:3 movie the screen size changes from about 74 to 94 inches measured diagonally.

My friend who is also a big user of the Netflix thing also watches Netflix streaming video. His is a 32 inch Sony LCD HDTV. When he wants to watch a streaming movie, he attaches his Compaq Presario lap top computer's TV out to an aux. input on the TV. I've seen it and it's pretty darn good. No where as nice as mine, but perfectly watchable.

<edit> Opps .. I originally said he was watching it via a wireless link, but I forgot he had to go to a wired connection, as the wireless he had couldn't handle the throughput needed. I was thinking of my own wireless which is a dual band N system that is able to playback 1080 hd with my BTV link machine and also does pretty well with Netflix. Sorry for the mix up.
<end edit>

The "tearing" thing you refer to is something I've never seen. During initial set up and testing and experimentation I have seen what we call "motion artifacts". These show up as "blocks" in very fast moving scenes, and are an indication that the bit rate rendering can't keep up with the video. But even with the worse case test scenario that's about the only thing I've come across. By the way ... If I recall, Silverlight recently had an upgrade.

[rugby]

Rich, I have 16Mbps down and Netflix tears all over the place with VMC. The version of silverlight Netflix uses doesn't support GPU acceleration so there's no offloading to the video card.

Bandwidth is NOT the issue, I've monitored the bandwidth on my download using PFSense and it's negligible during streaming.

[seeker_ktf]

Originally Posted by Rich A

6 mbit is pretty low.

The maximum speed that Netflix streaming can run at is 1.5 mbit. In your browser (not in full screen) typing cntl-alt-shift-S will bring up the streaming dialog. You have three choices (500K, 1000K, and 1500K, which correspond to Netflix's low, medium and high) of streaming speed. Basically, DSL might limit your quality but anything better than that will work just fine. (FYI: The Roku box uses wireless-g.) Tearing is reported by a lot of people. It is a major point of discussion on Silverlight's dev discussion board, the Netflix blog, and a bunch of boards all over the internet. There is a fix for Mac users that run under Firefox. Under Windows Vista it is also not a problem because there, you can adjust the vSync parameters properly. The newest release of Silverlight is 3.03, and it doesn't change anything.

The tearing only happens with Silverlight, not with Flash. I compared Episode 1 of Sliders last night between Netflix and Hulu. It's no comparison.

Do you run 1080p through your VGA connector? Maybe converting to analog helps to smooth out the picture.

Anyway, again, not to hijack this thread. My point was that the Roku box does exactly what everyone wants (remote control-wise and all... simple interface and outputs 720p) and realistically the 100 bucks that they change it extremely cheap for all of us geeks that already have a dedicated PC in the living room. The downside to the box is that you have to find another audio input to your amplifier and that it crushes the "geek factor" when you say that it's the only think not going through your PC.

[Rich A]

I did say that this "tearing" issue is something that I've never seen. And that I doubted it was being caused by a bandwidth issue. What version of Silverlight are you guys running? Mine is a 3x version not the 2.x I don't believe the 3.x version is generally available yet. As I recall I got it from their SDK area of Microsoft's Silverlight web page. Sorry I'm not at home right now so don't have the exact numbers and details. I will re-post the exact SilverLight version here when I get home.

Can you be more specific about the "tearing"? Or post a screen capture of that? Like I said earlier, usually if it's a bandwidth problem you'll see motion artifacts in areas where the video has a lot of action. Explosions. fire flames tend to show the artifacts best. I think by "tearing" you are talking about something else ..

<edit> Now that I think of it, trying to capture an example of the problem is probably near to impossible. I was thinking of a saved mpeg, and not a real time streaming thing.

[koan00]

Tearing looks alot like a video game with VSYNC turned off. Part of the image (usually the top) is rendered too fast or slow so that it looks like it's slightly offset from the rest of the image. It sometimes appears to be part of a different frame. This one portion does not match the rest of what is displayed on screen.

Regarding data points: I can add that yes, bad tearing in VMC/Netflix/SilverLight. IE8 Is much better.

In Win7/IE8 it looked suprising well when I was streamin Dexter last night.

They are reworking the netflix plugin for Win7 MCE, and it isnt released yet. I am hoping they address this issue when it comes out.

[seeker_ktf]

That is a great verbal description of tearing. It's one of the oldest and well known problems in digital video. And yes, the tearing is addressed in WIn7. It's only an XP thing.

I already said that I have Silverlight 3.03, which is the most recent available. If you want an example of tearing you can check youtube. Plenty of people talk about it. Anyway, this is my last word on the issue. As happens so often on the internet, the forest and the trees.