Digital replacement for PVR-500?

[Norm@Home]

I've been using an Hauppauge PVR-500 for a few years now and I'm really pretty satisfied with it. While HD is not really something I have to have there are a number of channels that I previously was able to get that Comcast has moved above channel 99 (to digital only) the highest channel that I can get on the PVR-500.

What I was wondering is what is the state of digital cable TV tuners that I could use to replace the PVR-500 with? Mainly to be able to get the channels that I used to be able to get that I can't now.

I did browse the Hauppauge web site and was wondering if the WinTV-HVR-2250 is a viable choice? It seems like a dual tuner, similar to the PVR-500 but does it work with Comcast and BeyondTV? Is it realiable and are there any driver related issues?

As an added benefit if I can move to a digital tuner I can jettison the $5 a month digital cable box that I'm currently enjoying. (really not so much )

Thanks,

- Norm

[Rich A]

Keep in mind that any digital tuner will only be able to decode what they call "Clear QAM" digital. And the only thing the cable companies are required by the FCC to give you in their basic package are the local over the air stations.

Usually everything else that is digital is scrambled and you will need your cable box if you want to watch them.

Here in CT with Cox cable, I'm getting about 11 clear QAM channels. CBS, NBC, ABC, CW, 3-PBS MY9, and a couple kids shows. BUT no ESPN, Sci-Fi or other stations. So I keep my analog tuners for them. Cox has promised to continue to provide the whole analog line up for at least until 2012.

I have a Hauppauge 1250 which is the single tuner version of the 2250. It works very well. I also have the HDHR which is a dual channel OTA or Cable Clear QAM tuner. But it is an external box that sends the digital signals across your LAN to your HTPC. That works very nice as well.

I've heard some guys claim to get many more clear qam channels. But most are limited to a dozen or so.

[Norm@Home]

Hi Rich:

I'm really not trying to get channels that I'm not paying for (ala HBO, Showtime etc) and just the stuff that I am actually paying for. (I'm sure that's not what you meant but I just wanted to say that for the record) I realize that Comcast has something of an invested interest in making sure that no one can use any equipment except their own so of course they're going to make it difficult.

Didn't the FCC mandate some type of equipment compatibility thing and the answer was something called a "cablecard"? (I'm honestly not up on this stuff) I realize that there's a hugh gap between what the FCC mandates and how well the cable company's carry that out and the FCC is a little lax in enforcement.

Is there anyplace where I'm likely to find out how many Clear QAM channels that Comcast serves up in my area?

Thanks,

- Norm

[Rich A]

Hi Norm,

No it isn't just what you "paid for". For example: You may be subscribing to the basic service. And that might be 40 channels. Those 40 channels will be things like AMC, Discovery channel, and well maybe 25 or more "basic channels". You get all 40 (for example) because you subscribe to the basic service. So that is one tier of channels. Then you have additional channels that cost more to subscribe to. These may be others not included in your basic package .. Maybe like the Outdoor Life channel, Golf channel etc. Then the last tier of channels are the "premium" channels. These are those you referred to .. Like HBO, Showtime Pay Per View etc.

Along with the BASIC subscription the FCC requires at a minimum for the cable co's to supply all the local terrestrial channels in your area. These must be part of, and included with, the very basic channel tier.

Why? Well back when cable was starting, I would guess that most people were getting the TV over the air. And those local stations had a lot of programming and ads that were specific to their local audience. When Cable came along, the people no longer needed to receive the local OTA station. The major networks were all on the cable. So a local CBS (for example) affiliate would loose a lot of his audience. So part of the agreement was that any "local" OTA station in any specific OTA reception area HAD to be included in the least expensive cable channel line up.

So the final deal is that the local stations are having their OTA stuff repeated to any cable subscriber. This not only insures that the cable company hasn't "stolen" their users, but can also increase their customer base. Everyone is happy.

Now those free local cable channels are ONLY for those actual OTA local stations. Lifetime, AMC etc. although included in your basic package are NOT broadcast OTA locally. So in the end, the only thing the cable company HAS to provide are those few local channels.

And as I mentioned, this is usually only 6 to 9 stations. Some have more, some less, depending on your geographic location and how many OTA stations are in your receiving area.

So I'm not talking about "Premium" channels only. I'm saying that all the cable co's HAVE to give you are those local channels.

These local cable channels used to be only in analog. However some cable companies are moving those local channels (and the rest of the basic channel package) to digital only, The cable companies then run two types of digital in their "basic" packages. One which is CLEAR QAM which is generally only those local channels. And the other 30, 40 or what-ever channels they also supply in their basic package, which are NOT clear QAM and require you to use their decoder box to receive them.

Cable cards (at the present) are only able to work with FCC type accepted manufactured devices .. like your TV. At this time the ONLY way you can get any kind of cable card device for a computer environment is to buy a specially built and FCC approved PC with the cable card slot included. You would get the actual card from your cable provider. Some Cable companies change a small rental (2 or 3 bucks) for the use of that "card". Some may just give it to you for free. You can not purchase any kind of "add on" to your computer system that would work with a cable card.

So right now, your only option (if you want a cable card equipped PC) is to buy one from one of the PC manufacturers.

Some cable companies have extra clear qam channels .. Like here I get the Science channel and a couple kids channels. But you should know that for the most part, any clear qam tuner is going to be limited to what ever commercial over the air stations that are in your area.

The advantages to using a clear qam channel as opposed to the same OTA channel is that OTA is sometimes difficult to get. Many times the OTA stations are in many different directions. Some are too far to receive with small indoor antennas and require running feed lines and installing outside antennas. Reception can be a problem during winter snows or summer rains. None of this is needed if getting those same channels via your cable co. clear qam.

The Disadvantages to using Clear Qam is that you have to pay. Yes only the lowest basic service is needed, but OTA costs you nothing to receive. Plus a more minor thing is that in many cases the OTA can be higher quality. Depending on the cable co. they often compress the signals to fit as many channels on their limited cable bandwidth. With an OTA signal each station is allotted a full 6 MHz of bandwidth. That's SIX MHz for one station. (they often have multiplexed sub channels on that one frequency too) Whereas the cable company might be trying to squeeze 30 or more channels into that same bandwidth.

But still, the digital clear qam cable is VERY nice and certainly better than the old analog cable. Most people would not even see the difference between a 1080 OTA video and a 1080 Clear Qam cable video. A real discerning eye might but mostly not.

As far as finding out what you have for Clear QAM your best bet is to find other users in your town with the same cable provider and find out what they currently have.

Personally I wish that cable companies put ALL of their basic cable channels as clear qam. Not just the locals, but AMC, TMC etc. as well. Then we (who don't want the "premium" channels) can use our HTPC with their own Clear QAM digital tuners just like we used to when they were all analog. I don't quite understand it. Well of course maybe the cable people want that extra income from STB and remote rentals. But I argue that in the past I have always been able to receive the ENTIRE basic package with an old "cable ready" TV .. no converter needed.

It's in this area that I not as knowledgeable. ... I wonder if I could receive all the normal digital channels in the "basic" package with a digital cable ready TV?? WITHOUT needing a converter box? Can anyone enlighten me about that? And if SO, then why don't we have PC digital tuner cards that can do the same ?? I don't think I've ever seen anyone elaborate on that.

UNLESS it's an FCC type acceptance thing. Ergo why you can't buy a cable card add-on for a PC.

Sorry for the long winded post. I hope I was able to clear up some things for you.

[PaulF]

Originally Posted by Norm@Home

I've been using an Hauppauge PVR-500 for a few years now and I'm really pretty satisfied with it. While HD is not really something I have to have there are a number of channels that I previously was able to get that Comcast has moved above channel 99 (to digital only) the highest channel that I can get on the PVR-500.

What I was wondering is what is the state of digital cable TV tuners that I could use to replace the PVR-500 with? Mainly to be able to get the channels that I used to be able to get that I can't now.

I did browse the Hauppauge web site and was wondering if the WinTV-HVR-2250 is a viable choice? It seems like a dual tuner, similar to the PVR-500 but does it work with Comcast and BeyondTV? Is it realiable and are there any driver related issues?

As an added benefit if I can move to a digital tuner I can jettison the $5 a month digital cable box that I'm currently enjoying. (really not so much )

Thanks,

- Norm

If you have Comcast, you can get two digital to analog tuners(Digital Transport Adapter or DTA) for free. You need an IR blaster to change channels. I ordered the DTAs and then found for the change over they have all of the old 2 to 71 channels in clear QAM plus a few extras. I haven't bothered to hook up the DTAs since my HDHR works great. I even use the same channel numbers as the old analog ones. I was going to try hooking both DTAs to my PVR500 through a combiner(one set to channel 3 and the other broadcasting on channel 4). I haven't tested my combiner idea though.

[ChefJoe]

Originally Posted by Rich A

Hi Norm,
These local cable channels used to be only in analog. However some cable companies are moving those local channels (and the rest of the basic channel package) to digital only, The cable companies then run two types of digital in their "basic" packages. One which is CLEAR QAM which is generally only those local channels. And the other 30, 40 or what-ever channels they also supply in their basic package, which are NOT clear QAM and require you to use their decoder box to receive them.

Cable cards (at the present) are only able to work with FCC type accepted manufactured devices .. like your TV. At this time the ONLY way you can get any kind of cable card device for a computer environment is to buy a specially built and FCC approved PC with the cable card slot included. You would get the actual card from your cable provider. Some Cable companies change a small rental (2 or 3 bucks) for the use of that "card". Some may just give it to you for free. You can not purchase any kind of "add on" to your computer system that would work with a cable card.

So right now, your only option (if you want a cable card equipped PC) is to buy one from one of the PC manufacturers.

Some cable companies have extra clear qam channels .. Like here I get the Science channel and a couple kids channels. But you should know that for the most part, any clear qam tuner is going to be limited to what ever commercial over the air stations that are in your area.

The advantages to using a clear qam channel as opposed to the same OTA channel is that OTA is sometimes difficult to get. Many times the OTA stations are in many different directions. Some are too far to receive with small indoor antennas and require running feed lines and installing outside antennas. Reception can be a problem during winter snows or summer rains. None of this is needed if getting those same channels via your cable co. clear qam.

The Disadvantages to using Clear Qam is that you have to pay. Yes only the lowest basic service is needed, but OTA costs you nothing to receive. Plus a more minor thing is that in many cases the OTA can be higher quality. Depending on the cable co. they often compress the signals to fit as many channels on their limited cable bandwidth. With an OTA signal each station is allotted a full 6 MHz of bandwidth. That's SIX MHz for one station. (they often have multiplexed sub channels on that one frequency too) Whereas the cable company might be trying to squeeze 30 or more channels into that same bandwidth.

But still, the digital clear qam cable is VERY nice and certainly better than the old analog cable. Most people would not even see the difference between a 1080 OTA video and a 1080 Clear Qam cable video. A real discerning eye might but mostly not.

As far as finding out what you have for Clear QAM your best bet is to find other users in your town with the same cable provider and find out what they currently have.

Personally I wish that cable companies put ALL of their basic cable channels as clear qam. Not just the locals, but AMC, TMC etc. as well. Then we (who don't want the "premium" channels) can use our HTPC with their own Clear QAM digital tuners just like we used to when they were all analog. I don't quite understand it. Well of course maybe the cable people want that extra income from STB and remote rentals. But I argue that in the past I have always been able to receive the ENTIRE basic package with an old "cable ready" TV .. no converter needed.

It's in this area that I not as knowledgeable. ... I wonder if I could receive all the normal digital channels in the "basic" package with a digital cable ready TV?? WITHOUT needing a converter box? Can anyone enlighten me about that? And if SO, then why don't we have PC digital tuner cards that can do the same ?? I don't think I've ever seen anyone elaborate on that.

UNLESS it's an FCC type acceptance thing. Ergo why you can't buy a cable card add-on for a PC.

Sorry for the long winded post. I hope I was able to clear up some things for you.

Rich, you can find ATI branded external cablecard "adapters" that are rumored to work with Vista and a BIOS hack that allows it to pass some OCUR security check. No word on BeyondTV supporting them NEW ATI TV WONDER DIGITAL CABLE TUNER USB HI-DEF+STAND - eBay (item 200358527000 end time Jul-08-09 01:13:17 PDT) (but I suspect their content isn't secured the same way the cable companies would like).

For what it's worth, my Comcast market in Seattle is transitioning to digital with DTA adapters and, for the time being, all the expanded basic lineup you'd expect in analog without a 2-way cable box are being broadcast in clear QAM format (480p and there's some HD versions) in the channels 79.x and higher. I'm talking about 70+ digital channels and radio stations in clear QAM. Unfortunately, I think the recent ruling on separable encryption exceptions and the fast-track applied for by Pace means that comcast will soon encrypt all those clearQAM and require those stupid DTA boxes for each tuner. So much for my $10/month limited local cable plan being awesome with clearQAM tuners. :-)

I suspect the move is to lock down the signal so that people can't use splitters and get "premium content" on all their TVs/DVRs for the price of 1 drop, encourage more onDemand premium usage, and allow comcast to do all sorts of reconfiguring of their service without rolling a truck to install frequency filters on your line. There may be additional advantages when it comes to multi-residence buildings and moving, etc.