Digital transition in 2009: what does it mean for regular analog cable?

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by 8IronBob

Well, it's a little stronger than the RCA Terrestrial HD Antenna that I have, but for some strange reason, the Philips doesn't pick up the same channels that the RCA does, unfortunately... I tried the "kitchen sink" idea with it, but... still the same results. I'm gonna see what CNet says in some reviews on OTA HD antennae, and find out which is best. However, I don't think that OTA HD will beat QAM when it comes to local stations, tho. At least you won't risk losing a signal with QAM like you would with OTA. Still, I wish that Microsoft would've had more support for QAM and/or more local HD than just primary stations.

Actually an OTA digial signal with a good outdoor antenna is better than a cable QAM digital. For one thing, cable can often go out from lines down or problems with the cable company. I'd have to honestly say that on more than one occasion I've switched to my OTA digital signals because the cable company had an outage. And I only know of ONE time in the last 10 or more years any of the local OTA stations have gone off the air.

Then there is the quality thing. The cable signal is limited by the available bandwidth where the cable companies are trying to squeeze more and more cables down the wires. Fiber optic helps, but the digital QAM over cable is not as good as the digital ATSC received OTA. Most people don't notice the difference though. It mainly shows up when you have very high action scenes with a lot of motion. Many times the cable version will display motion artifacts whereas the OTA signal is clear. I've recorded both simultaneously and compared the signals frame by frame.

Then there was a situation a few years back when our local cable provider did not have the full HD signal for that years Super Bowl. The digital they provided was only in 480. But the local OTA station was broadcasting in 720 HD. Needless to say, I was the only guy in our neighborhood watching that game in HD via an OTA local broadcast.

That same cable company, by the way, has since added that ABC HD lineup to their digital tier.

So there is a lot to say for good HD digital OTA reception, if you can get it.

Oh and of course the OTA stations are free.

[8IronBob]

True, but at least around here, I can actually get more local stations over QAM than ATSC, surprisingly. I mean, jeez... Very disappointing for a 50dB indoor antenna that it can't even pick up more than a half-dozen stations. Plus the family doesn't want to swap out the aerial out for an HD one on the chimney, because of the cost to have it removed and replaced, when it's cheaper to have cable and an indoor antenna, which I thought was a high-end HD antenna...

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by 8IronBob

True, but at least around here, I can actually get more local stations over QAM than ATSC, surprisingly. I mean, jeez... Very disappointing for a 50dB indoor antenna that it can't even pick up more than a half-dozen stations. Plus the family doesn't want to swap out the aerial out for an HD one on the chimney, because of the cost to have it removed and replaced, when it's cheaper to have cable and an indoor antenna, which I thought was a high-end HD antenna...

There is really no difference between a regular VHF/UHF antenna and what they call an HD antenna. Have you checked to see how many OTA stations are within your reception area?

One of the problems is that the old analog OTA stations are usually the primary station and it has the top spot on the tower, and usually has a lot more power. Most the digital are currently not at the best spot, and usually much less power. So where you might get the local NBC analog station OTA, you might not get that same stations digital.

However I think that is all going to change when the analog OTA is finally gone for good. At that point you will see all those stations switching the antennas optimized for their digital signal and will up the power most likely as well.

Check antennaweb.org and find out what is in your area. There is also an FCC site where you can get all the details about the various stations. Like height, power and even the radiation pattern. I've found here there is a BIG difference. For example, until recently the local CBS affiliate was broadcasting their analog with power in the megawatt effective radiated range. But their digital was on a few thousand watts. Lotta difference between 3,000 watts and 1,000,000 watts. But I noticed they recently applied to the FCC for a lot of changes, and the digital signal was increased drastically. Guess they are getting ready for the day when they HAVE to turn off the analog transmitter.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Rich A

There is also an FCC site where you can get all the details about the various stations. Like height, power and even the radiation pattern.

Do you have a link for that? I would be very interested in seeing this. Thanks.

[Rich A]

Here is the main page where you would input your query.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Just plug in the stations callsign and the State etc. Look at the whole page too. There is a section near the bottom where you can have it list all the stations within so many miles of your location.

Once get your search result, you'll see a list of stations. The ones with the "DT" designation are the digital ones. Others are analog. If you really want to see it all, click on one of the stations to see the full details.

Below is what I get for my local CBS affiliate here in CT. Notice that NOW the digital station is 1 million watts and the analog was reduced to a couple hundred thousand watts. Up until recently those figures were reversed. Now that CBS digital station comes in like gangbusters.

Antennaweb.org is nice for seeing where to point your antenna. And the distance to that station. BUT those facts can be very misleading. You have to take into consideration the height of the transmitting antenna, and the power. How it is polarized and in some cases you can also get the radiation pattern. The radiation pattern can be critical too. For example US stations near the Canadian boarder usually build their antennas so that most of the radiated signal goes south to the US and not into Canada.

This is also the case with some PBS type stations. They try to keep their transmissions within their own service area.

Height above average terrain is very important too. Knowing that you can plot the direction to the station and checking a topographical map see if you are in the shadow of a hill or mountain. I've cut out a lot of the information listed below. When you are actually on the site, many of the things listed are links to more detailed information.

I've been a Ham Radio Operator for most of my life, so I'm sorta into all that stuff.

WFSB CT HARTFORD USA

Licensee: MEREDITH CORPORATION
Service Designation: TV NTSC (analog) television station

Channel: 3 60 - 66 MHz Licensed
File No.: BLCT-20060324ABA Facility ID number: 53115
CDBS Application ID No.: 1120252

41° 46' 30.00" N Latitude Site in Canadian Border Zone
72° 48' 20.00" W Longitude (NAD 27)

Polarization: Circular (H = V)
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 100. kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 271.1 meters HAAT -- Calculate HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 358.1 meters AMSL
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 142.6 meters AGL

TV Zone: 1
Frequency Offset: + (plus)

Non-Directional Antenna ID No.: 44845 Pattern Rotation: 0.00
Antenna Make: DIE Antenna Model: TDM-5A3 (S)

FAA: FAA Study No. 2002-ANE-783-OE Obstruction/Airport Airspace searches

CDBS: Station Info Application Info Mailing Address Assignments and Transfers
Application List CDBS Search Page Ownership Info EEO Call Sign Changes
Site: Region Map Area Map Local Map
Area: Service Contour Map (47 dBu) Alternate Map Link
ULS: Related facilities in ULS
ASRNs within 0.5 km radius

WFSB CT HARTFORD USA (Digital)

Licensee: MEREDITH CORPORATION
Service Designation: DT Digital television station

Channel: 33 584 - 590 MHz Licensed
File No.: BLCDT-20041029AIL Facility ID number: 53115
CDBS Application ID No.: 1023606

41° 46' 30.00" N Latitude Site in Canadian Border Zone
72° 48' 20.00" W Longitude (NAD 27)

Polarization: Horizontal (H)
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 1000. kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 288.8 meters HAAT -- Calculate HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 375.8 meters AMSL
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 160.3 meters AGL

TV Zone: 1
Frequency Offset: 0 (zero)

Directional Antenna ID No.: 44846 Pattern Rotation: 0.00
Antenna Make: DIE Antenna Model: TFU-26GTH-R 6T130

Changes
Site: Region Map Area Map Local Map
Area: Service Contour Map (41 dBu) Alternate Map Link
ULS: Related facilities in ULS ASRNs within 0.5 km radius

[cncb]

Very interesting. I have been having trouble picking up the local CW digital station and it looks like they are broadcasting at 125kW while the analog is 4168 kW!! I guess this could explain it. I hope they reverse things like they did for your CBS. Thanks for the info.

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by cncb

Very interesting. I have been having trouble picking up the local CW digital station and it looks like they are broadcasting at 125kW while the analog is 4168 kW!! I guess this could explain it. I hope they reverse things like they did for your CBS. Thanks for the info.

When the analog officially goes away, they will HAVE to upgrade if they want to stay in business. The same analog frequencies that they are now using will be sold to other radio services. Hang in there. It can only get better (we hope)

Most people are not impressed with digital because of it's nature and how hard it is to tune in. They don't realize that up to now the digital stations were literally the low antenna on the totem pole and were not the prime scope of the TV stations operation so usually had low power amplifiers. This is going to start changing and some of the larger stations have already made digital TV their primary focus.

[8IronBob]

Yeah, I think my local FOX station went almost all digital now. However, there are still some lower frequency stations around here, and hopefully those will change in due time. ABC and NBC seem to be coming up in digital tiers now, so it's only a matter of time... CBS is about mid-range in strength, not exactly the best, CW may come in (hit and miss). Univision comes in real well, tho, surprised about that... My Network TV picks up well. However, there are some hit and miss digital signals around here, tho. Hopefully that'll change soon.

Perhaps the most stable channels in digital now are ABC, NBC, FOX, Univision, and My Network. CBS, CW, and PBS are too hit and miss.
Perhaps the only way I can get ALL local channels is through QAM, at this point... Otherwise OTA will only pick up the ones mentioned that are stable signals.

EDIT: That's rather much a disappointment for such a high-dB antenna that can only pick up a handful of stable signals. I believe my RCA's picking up far more OTA HD channels than my Philips ever did. Maybe it's selective channel gains, but QAM does indeed bring in more stations than OTA at this point... Cox has done a good job with local stations for QAM reception. Maybe that "Terrestrial" in an HD Antenna must make it better for digital signals. Guess that higher dB vs. Terrestrial makes a difference.

[nanook105]

Rich,

Thanks for that link. A couple of questions

All of my stations have polarization of Horizontal or Elliptical. Not sure what difference that makes

My ERPs are all over the board, and some seem rather lame compared to yours:

WBBM 4.4 kW
WGN 645 kW
WCIU 160 kW
WMAQ 350 kW
WFLD 690 kW
WTTW 300 kW
WLS 153.6 kW

Why would there be such a wide range and whats up with a 4.4 kW for WBBM (CBS) ?

[8IronBob]

Well, now that you mention callsigns, I'm gonna make things simple as far as what I'm able to get from my Philips antenna when it's at its strongest, and what my RCA Terrestrial antenna can pick up when it's strong, and what QAM brings in...

This is from the Cleveland/Parma, OH area, btw:

Philips 50dB Antenna (Walmart):
WKYC (NBC and NBC WeatherPlus)
WEWS (ABC)
WJW (FOX)
WUAB (MyTV and The Tube)
WQHS (Univision/Spanish)
WBNX (CW, if I'm lucky this will pick up)

RCA Terrestrial Antenna (Newegg):
WKYC (NBC, both channels again)
WEWS (ABC)
WJW (FOX)
WOIO (CBS and 19 Action News Weather)
WUAB (MyTV and The Tube)
WQHS (Spanish/Univision)
Haven't determined if the RCA can pick up WBNX as well as the Philips, that's another thing.

Anyway, I subscribe to Cox Digital Cable, so with QAM, I can pick up all those channels, as well as WVIZ (PBS), which doesn't come in OTA at all. I also pick up a couple of cable channels with QAM as well, like WGN SuperStation, I believe that there were others, I'll have to review through them, oh, a local College SmartTV station (Cuyahoga Community College), TBN, so I guess that there are some cable stations that do come in via QAM, so that's nice to know.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by nanook105

Why would there be such a wide range and whats up with a 4.4 kW for WBBM (CBS) ?

I recently moved from the Chicago area but I remember back in 2000 when I first got my HDTV and all this was starting up. WBBM was having problems with their digital channel assignment/broadcast on channel 3 knocking out the cable customers in downtown Chicago which ironically received WBBM on analog cable channel 3. I don't think they ever went "full power" because of this and this is probably still the case.

[AUTiger97]

I currently have and use greatly, my Snapstream PVR in which I have 6 tuners. I am on Charter cable and will be greatly disappointed if the changes being talked about dtv and conversions possible in the cable companies render my setup useless. It's very nice to have a system that can simultaneously record 6 different shows. I know for sure I have spiked up to 4 things I wanted to watch on at the exact same time and with my Snapstream, I could do it. When you get all the good shows on a Thursday night + a big college football game on at the same time, how else you gonna do it.

So, all this is to say: SnapStream, where do stand on all of this change that could/might happen that could render the hardware that you sell useless? Is this accurate, or do we not have anything to worry about?

It would be nice to see an "official" thread from SnapStream that can accurately address impact of the broadcast television industry and cable companies changes in relation to the flexibility of the SnapStream product and especially simultaneous show recording.

Thank you.

Oh, and I must say my wife wouldn't be happy either, show loves our setup. We don't know what we did before we had our "monster" dvr

[Fonceur]

Originally Posted by AUTiger97

SnapStream, where do stand on all of this change that could/might happen that could render the hardware that you sell useless?

Not quite sure what you expect there... If you've read the various threads, you'll know that analog cable isn't going anywhere, unless specific cable providers want to risk losing market shares to Satellite providers, by losing one of their advantages...

Even if your cable provider decides to go all digital, you can still use your existing capture cards by connecting each to its own cable box, or go the clear QAM or OTA route to get your HD channels and more...

[DonK]

http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/index.html

For anyone with questions about the digital tv transition, here's a great site with a lot of information, including about the digital converter boxes that are covered by the FCC coupon program.

One disappointing thing I found out is that any early-adopter HDTV owners who bought one with only an SD tuner or a "HDTV monitor" style tv that has component inputs are out of luck on using the coupons to purchase a converter that has component outputs. Any converter boxes with component outputs are ineligible to be purchased in conjunction with the coupon. Only ones with composite, analog F connector, or svid outputs are eligible. "Supposedly" (note the quotes) the same goes for ones that decode QAM cable.

The site does give a lot of technical information though and is very useful. They include links to where to purchase a lot of these OTA boxes.

One thing I'd be curious about is getting these to work with standard def cards via IR blasters in a pinch, so that people can still do OTA without having to scrap their old PVR250's etc...

[mayhem70]

http://www.tvsnob.com/archives/018772.php
Looks like Wilmington, NC is going to switch sooner.