Continuing discussion on HT vs MM

[Rich A]

From far away in a distant thread: (HDTV Monitors post #4) DanielS said:

(begin quote)
(*) This is a footnote to Rich A. here. Rich's well-supported view (if I may try to paraphrase here) is that the HTPC is solely a PVR whose role is to support the Theater Room and as such should run stably 24/7. Basically we agree completely accept for the word solely. I believe it should be always on, optimized and as stable as one can make it. But I differ in that I build HTPCs for people who want to use them for a multiplicity of uses besides timeshifting TV and driving a Theater, e.g. HI-Def Web, Email, Office Apps, Chat, Gaming, Home Control, etc. They want to pay one price and get one machine. A challenge, yes to be sure. Is the hardware up to it? Yes it is. Is Beyond TV? That is the Horse I have chosen to back. I hope I am not wrong.
(end quote)

Oh boy !! I got a footnote !!
Heh heh. So let me comment on the HTPC thing. Do you mean that when the guy wants to view his email, he trots on down to the home theater and fires up the projector or large screen device and starts the 7.1 surround sound receiver/amp .. then sits in his nice comfortable recliner and drags out a keyboard and mouse ... JUST to get his email ?? Or to compose a Word Document? Naw .. I don't think so.

While it MAY be okay to have something like caller-id or an email checker just to view anything that happened come in while you are already in the home theater .. that's one thing.

I think you are describing a multimedia computer .. that happens to have theater quality video playback. Also, while I'm in my theater watching a really good movie .. I'm there to enjoy the "theater" experience without having to physically go to an actual theater. While watching something like "The Aviator" I don't WANT to be interupted, and have no desire to be bothered by email notifications or caller id etc. Yes I do have those features enabled in my home theater environment .. but often turn them off when we have a "crowd" over to watch movies.

Can you imagine my audiance sitting there, lights dimmed, watching the "big screen" showing of "Spiderman" and all of a sudden ... on the screen pops up, "You've got mail" ?? Or a message saying, "John Brown is calling" ...

Now if I were siting in my home office watching a movie (not that I would) I might want to play it back in a small window while I'm checking my email, or composing a document etc. But to use an actual "home theater" to anything other than enjoy the home theater experience is in my thinking very counter-productive.

This is one reason why I suggested an additional forum for actual home theater builders and users. The whole environment, like risers for seating, sound deadening, proper viewing distance, and the many things that a PVR software like BTV (or BM) does that affects this special environment. But mostly for those things as affected by the Beyond what-ever environment. For example, I find the main BTV GUI to be quite good when viewing on a 6 foot or larger screen. Of course there is my 5.1 surround system too. Special considerations were made within the BTV environment to use the SPDIF pass through. And DVD playback .. I wanted the quality and remote functionality of my (soon to be retired) stand alone DVD player ... duplicated with my SnapStream HT environment.

Really, the "computer room" is one door down the hall from the home theater. Using an "actual" home theater to compose an email, or write a document or balance my checkbook is really not a very efficient way to do it. I mean where do I put the check book and papers? Yeah I have a cup holder .. But it's only good for holding drinks.

So if you are using it to do all those "non-theater" things .. how can you call it a "home theater" ?? You must admit .. there ARE actual home theaters that ARE solely dedicated to the home theater experience .. and that's what I'm talking about. (I love a debate .. heh heh)

By the way .. in reference to my off-topic note there was mentioned something about toys for the wealthy (or something like that) Just to set the record straight, my own home theater is almost finished, only needing the rug to be put down and the wall paper hung. I will have pics and how-to's, to show how to do this "on a budget". I've paid in total less than most guys pay for a large screen TV. The real home theater experience CAN be had on a budget with a lot of planning and a lot of "do-it-yourself".

[DanielS]

Hey Rich! Thought you had gone Walk About! I love a debate too, when I have the time; but I'll make some for you.

I agree with ALL of what you said because from where you are coming from the term "Home Theater" means a dedicated environment at home that is as much like the actual theater as one can make it within their alloted budget.

For my business model, I am using the term more loosely as one often throws around the term Home Theater without the thought and dedication you have put into it. For the customer I am after, their "Home Theater" is their Living Room where the family gathers after dinner to watch TV, talk, entertain friends, brush the dog, fight with the nerd brother or the snotty pre-pubescent sister. Everything is going on. Everything is possible.

When one is done with a movie or a TV program, they can work with an Email or Chat plug-in, or if need be, minimize BM/BTV and work with full-blown MS Office or Internet Explorer or play a game of Doom3.

See where I am coming from now. Beyond TV and Beyond Media fit in my HTPC world too. But I agree we NEED a meeting of the minds at least with BTV that the core PVR doesn't get all (bloat-a-la-Microsoft) and destroyed in the process. That's why I like your idea of keeping the esoteric stuff in plug-ins.

That's also why I heartily agreed with your original idea of starting a separate thread for just this sort of discussion!!!

As to the rich toys comment, I haven't read it in context yet. But it's my opinion that this Forum serves all levels of user: well off and not so well off. I myself am NOT rich. I did just buy an expensive HDTV but my wife and I saved for it for 5 years.

[TV Scheduler]

Home Theater? The real thing for those whose fame doesn't allow them a normal life. Yea, why not fly your friends and family in for a get together. A room with seating for 12 or 15 would be great. They could watch your new movie that hasn't been released yet. The guy that puts the theater together would be a minor sub contractor to the remodeling contractor.

While at work today I considered that a pro ball player might want. How about a trophy/TV room. When the system idles it could play a series of his career highlights while playing a tune like 'Nobody does it better' or 'I need a hero'.

That's the difference I see between two high end systems. Both would require custom art work for the interface but the basic software is pretty straight forward.



Bob

[DanielS]

Ah, says me! Now I see what you are getting at Bob. I didn't understand at first but now I'm getting the idea. And I happen to know just the ball players.

[Rich A]

Good points both Bob and Dan,

I REALLY should get my web site updated with what I've done. You would be amazed at how you could enjoy the "theater experience" on a budget.

About the only thing _I'm_ famous for are my grandchildren. And thanks to SnapStream's Beyond Media, when we have guests over, they of course are given a quick slide show of them (which is really impressive on the large screen).

My screen is home made .. and is motorized to adjust itself to any aspect ratio. All the lighting is controlled automatically. When we start a movie I can optionally do a fancy start (jes to impress the viewers .. heh heh)

I push a button on my remote and the following happens:

The main lites raise and lower to a dim level while the projector turns on. This gives everyone a warning the movie is about to start. Then after 45 seconds the main lite is slowly dimmed to being completely off. And a few "rope" lights that are under the steps to the seating riser are turned on. (so if someone in the back row has to leave, they can see the floor and step)

Then the computer plays an intro, with a fancy animated graphic that welcomes everyone to the "Aubin Micro-Complex Theater". (with a note about having the best popcorn in town and also for the patrons to please not leave their gum under the seats) ..

Once that is done, the DVD player is started up and the screen fades into the main menu of the dvd ..

THAT is a real home theater experience. It's been over a year project for me. I've done EVERY bit of construction, wiring and such myself. And I'm SURE anyone who could drive a nail could do the same. This has been for me a project to see just how inexpensive such an undertaking can be. So far my total investment is under 2 grand. All I have left is to put up the wall paper, and lay the carpet. The carpet is going to be the only part of the project that I will hire someone to do. I expect the final talley to be well under 3 grand, which is still less than some of the stand alone large screen displays all by themselves. And I'm looking at a six foot screen. That's wide not diagnal ..

But there's a lot of sweat equitiy in this project. Like I said, I've been working at it for over a year now. (funny note) .. it would have been done LONG ago if it weren't for the fact that once I got the thing operational, I found myself spending all my spare time watching movies and TV instead of working on the project.

[DanielS]

Really interesting post Rich. I'm blown away by projects like this. Reminds me of the guy who built the 747 Cockpit out of a car in his house and powered it via 6 PCs. Wish I had the space and the time. Live in an apartment now.

Couple of points:

Originally Posted by Rich A

... I REALLY should web site updated with what I've done. You would be amazed at how you could enjoy the "theater experience" on a budget.

Duh! Ya think! Get on the stick Guy.

... and is motorized to adjust itself to any aspect ratio. ...

In-friggin'credible!

... it would have been done LONG ago if it weren't for the fact that once I got the thing operational, I found myself spending all my spare time watching movies and TV instead of working on the project.

Yeah, that's why so many of my projects take so long too!

Great work. It shows a maticulousness and care often seen in those who practice of hobby model railroading for a hobby.

[TV Scheduler]

It sounds like great fun. I considered something like it but I squandered my money and won't be retiring in a home where this would be possible. I got the little TV because I expect to be moving into an even smaller place.

Hummm.... Maybe... so small that a projector with a powered screen would be better than a TV. Ok we want to know about the screen! We don't want theater seating. We want to convert a room from one thing to another.

How about a small bedroom as a guest room with a convertible sofa and nice chair. The computer stuff is hiding in the closet. What could you do with that room?

Bob

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by TV Scheduler

It sounds like great fun. I considered something like it but I squandered my money and won't be retiring in a home where this would be possible. I got the little TV because I expect to be moving into an even smaller place.

Hummm.... Maybe... so small that a projector with a powered screen would be better than a TV. Ok we want to know about the screen! We don't want theater seating. We want to convert a room from one thing to another.

How about a small bedroom as a guest room with a convertible sofa and nice chair. The computer stuff is hiding in the closet. What could you do with that room?

Bob

Bob, that's kinda what I did. When my kids all moved out I was left with a medium sized bedroom in the lower level of the raised ranch. On one wall of the room is a large walk in closet. The opening just happens to be a tad over 6 feet. So the screen I built is recessed into that closet. This gives you a much desired "shadow box" for your screen. Which means where the screen is, is in a very dark area. The inside of the closet was painted flat black and non-reflecting black felt covers the wood work. Even in natural lighting the screen display is wonderful. When the room is darkened, you only see the video floating in a completely black area.

Being in a shadow box sort of thing also stops the light from reflecting off the screen back into the room. When I get finished with the wall papering, I will build a small stage at the foot of the screen and put a theater-like curtain that will frame the opening.

I opted for a native 4:3 screen as I intended to watch some normal TV on it. Ergo the movable mask arrangement. Here is my thinking on the subject of 4:3 native display vs wide screen native: (see the graphic at the end of this)

The problem with a 4:3 native display is that when you are using a similar (inexpensive) PJ that is also 4:3 when you are viewing something that is wide screen you get the light over-spill, creating a "grey" set of bars on the top and bottom of the screen. My screen can adjust itself using black felt masks that absorbs this spill. This and the fact that the whole thing is in a very dark shadow box results in it looking like you are actually watching on a dedicated wide screen aspect ratio screen. I am working currently on the motor part .. but right now I have everything balanced so with a finger you can push the screen to the exact desired position and it will stay there. Also with the counter balanced weight I gain the advantage that the whole thing can be easily moved with a very light duty motor. I've been told my design is unique and even "elegant" over at the AVS forum. I'll post some pics of the thing in it's current unfinished (but functional) setup. I believe the whole screen setup so far has cost me less than 100 bucks. I've found a hundred ways to get the real "theater experience" on a very limited budget.

For example .. the motorized commercial version of my screen (or something like it) would normally cost someone a couple thousand. I'd say 100 bucks is quite a savings. For example, to control this thing automatically (so I can adjust the aspect ratio from my chair) is built around a car electric window motor. Found a guy selling NOS (new old stock not used) motor gear setups for 8 bucks a pop.

[TV Scheduler]

Nice....

You can use an electric screwdriver to drive a threaded rod. A nut on the rod will move up or down the rod when the screwdriver motor runs.

You just take the bit out of the screwdriver and slip in the threaded rod. Drill a hole and insert a pin so the rod turns with the screwdriver motor.

I cut some plastic to the size and shape I needed and threaded a hole for the rod. (I used it for tuning an HF antenna.)

You might need to put the screwdriver in a box to keep the noise down.


Bob

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by TV Scheduler

Nice....

You can use an electric screwdriver to drive a threaded rod. A nut on the rod will move up or down the rod when the screwdriver motor runs.

You just take the bit out of the screwdriver and slip in the threaded rod. Drill a hole and insert a pin so the rod turns with the screwdriver motor.

I cut some plastic to the size and shape I needed and threaded a hole for the rod. (I used it for tuning an HF antenna.)

You might need to put the screwdriver in a box to keep the noise down.


Bob

Hey Bob .. now that's one I haven't thought of. I looked at all kinds of screw motors, linear actuators, gear motors and such. All were in the 70 to 100 buck range .. even surplus. The problem was that I need to move the screen a total of 10 inches. As the screen with the fixed bottom mask goes up the top mask comes down. They are attached with a cable and pulley system. Because both are moving equal amounts, I only need 10 inches of lift to change the total screen height 20 inches. Plus the center of the screen is always the same. No projector adjustment are ever needed. Surplus linear drive motors and such are comon, but most of them only have a few inches of travel.

But the power screwdriver thing sounds like an inexpensive way to go. And it should have enough torque to lift the counter-balanced screen. Great idea!

I was going to use one of those automotive electric window motor/gear things, but this sounds like it would be much simpler. (and easily replaced)

Can't thank you enough ..

[RiderFan]

Wow, I thought my Home Theatre was awesome until I read about yours. I have a 12 inch black and white tv on an old turntable in the middle of the room. I have lawn chairs circling the turntable. This way everyone gets a great seat, every 10 seconds or so. I too, have stadium seating, I have set up cardboard boxes, and put the back row of lawn chairs on the boxes. As long as your not a squirmer, you're safe. The only problem with my theatre, is that the cord for the TV gets wound up as it goes around the turntable, and I have to unplug the TV to straighten the cord out every 45 seconds or so. My setup was cheap too.

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by RiderFan

Wow, I thought my Home Theatre was awesome until I read about yours. I have a 12 inch black and white tv on an old turntable in the middle of the room. I have lawn chairs circling the turntable. This way everyone gets a great seat, every 10 seconds or so. I too, have stadium seating, I have set up cardboard boxes, and put the back row of lawn chairs on the boxes. As long as your not a squirmer, you're safe. The only problem with my theatre, is that the cord for the TV gets wound up as it goes around the turntable, and I have to unplug the TV to straighten the cord out every 45 seconds or so. My setup was cheap too.

Watch out .. that's how I started.

[DanielS]

I don't even both straightening out the cord. Once it gets too tight, it acts like a spring and winds the other way, kinda like a perpetual motion thingy. I harness the stored energy to run my popcorn machine.