SATA or SAS?

[HomeyFour]

When I started my new job as the Quality Manager, I also somehow inherited the IT manager role, as well (??).

I've been tasked to buy and setup our first network server (I know, I know, its 2008 and they don't have one?!?!?) for our company of 150. About 50 PCs are involved. I've sold the company on redundancy (redundant power supplies, fans, NICs) but trying to figure out hard drives.

One of the companies fears is that files off the server will be 'too slow'. I want to go for hot-plug SATA drivers vs. SAS because I can get so much more room for the price, but these SATA drives are all 7200 RPM, whereas the SAS are 10,000 up to 15,000.

I'm not sure though that on a RAID-5 if the difference will be that noticeable? I'd rather save the $$ on the drives to be able to spend some more on software.

[dlightle]

I'm not the most experienced with this, so take it with a grain of salt, but applying the HTPC/PVR side of things to this consider this:

What about using SATA II drives (7200 RPM -- there is the 10k route, but not as a bang-for-your-buck direction), non-RAID (straight to the controller), to maximize throughput (preferably with PCIex controller cards)? Then use some method for redundant backups (tape, etc.). Just throwing it out there, since the RAID5 is for stay-alive rather than full backup dependency, I believe.

Plus you get more space out of your drives that way, too. As for SATA vs SAS, I'd say SATA is your obvious better price pitch, but it'll depend largely on a lot of factors of your business. For instance, how intensively are the users hitting the server? (Are we talking text files, word and excel docs, etc. or massive data files like we as PVR users would see?) Do you expect much growth? If there's a chance for explosive growth for instance, you may be better off with SAS in the long-term.

Also, some of the decision would be based on knowing how to configure and maintain either approach.

At a quick glance I'd say the SATA approach is probably a safe bet for now, but don't rely on my word.

[Darkk]

In addition to dlightle's comments don't underestimate the storage requirements. I usually double whatever we think we need just so there is room to handle any surprises.

I currently have a RAID-5 1.2TB drive array and it's currently half full. This is a server I run at home as a fileserver! Some people here have over 2TB of disk space just for HTPC stuff.

I purchased the Highpoint 8 channel SATA controller for like $300 which is perfect for home use and works both in Linux or Windows. However, for enterprise environments I would go with brand names like Adaptec due to their solid know how in making these cards and better software monitoring tools.

Also, most important. Make sure the server can be managed via remote so you don't have to come in the office on your days or nights off to fix something unless you have people under you who can fix it themselves. Plenty of tools out there that can easily do this.

Good luck.

Darkk

[HomeyFour]

Well this is for a 100+ employee company - its main file/print server. I'm going to either buy an HP or a Dell server (with either ILO or DARC for remote management, respectively). I also use Dameware Utilities for management. The question is, I can get 1 TB+ of space using SATA for about the same price as 500GB (RAID5 in both cases) using SCSI/SAS.

[rugby]

Storage is cheap, load up on SATA drives in either RAID 10 or RAID 5 and you will be set. I deal with Mac servers on a daily basis and with graphic designers working off of a server on 100+MB files. I like 3Ware cards on the Windows side, get an 4-port card (or an 8 port if you've got the cash), some 750GB SATA drives (seems to be the sweet spot now for price/capacity) and you should be good to go.

[Jakesty]

Originally Posted by HomeyFour

Well this is for a 100+ employee company - its main file/print server. I'm going to either buy an HP or a Dell server (with either ILO or DARC for remote management, respectively). I also use Dameware Utilities for management. The question is, I can get 1 TB+ of space using SATA for about the same price as 500GB (RAID5 in both cases) using SCSI/SAS.

Homey, I have quite a bit of experience in this area. Having built several servers for the company I work at. Many of our "crappy" previous servers run a lot of transactions (as just a file server for 175+ computers) using just Windows Mirroring under W2K. So you probably won't have a problem with throughput unless your users have gigantic files to work with.
The above server is using an Intel D102 motherboard with a 2.8ghz processor and 250gb 7200rpm drives.
Now if you want something better, which sounds like you do with hot swap drives, the other system that I just got done building uses an Intel s5000PSL dual xeon motherboard. You can use lower end CPU's for this system which for a file/print server works perfectly due to the low CPU needs there. Second, this m/b handles both SATA and SAS with on board RAID capabilities. This line of server motherboards has a nice case built just for this need. Dual PSU's and additional Hot swap cage can be added.
Holds 6 drives externally. Case can run you $800-1000, M/B <$500, Memory up to you, I'd say 4gb though will be much more than necessary.
Drives, get 4. 2 mirrored for your boot and page file, the other two terabyte drives mirrored for data. You could RAID 5 your data drives, but just add another $200, you could also add a 4th drive for a hot spare which I'd recommend too. If you can afford SAS, look at Seagates Cheetah drives, they are DAMN fast. 15000 rpms of crazy speed. I formatted a Raid 5 3 drive array, 560gb usable, in under 3 mins. Like I said crazy fast.
This system is not that much different from a normal PC in building it. The difference being the Hot swap bay if needed.

This system can easily be built for less than $3000. If this is beyond your budget, then you probably need to go with plan A above. But with this system it will grow with you over time. And to tell you the truth, they just run well. I've got 3 with the above system (the first started out almost 2 years ago now) and we're adding more about once every 6 months. No, there's no maintenance agreement, so if that is critical for you, you'll need to pay the $1000 or so a year for that service to HP or Dell I guess. But heck, just buy another M/B and mothball it for future disaster recovery needs at less than $500.

HTH, Jake

[HomeyFour]

I think I'm going to go with a vendor for the hardware rather than do it myself. We don't have a dedicated IT staff (I'm the Quality Manager for the company!) and if we have hardware problems, I want to just call Dell and not have to mess with it. Besides file/print server, this box will also probably end up being an Exchange 2007 server as well. I think I'm set on SATA, almost exclusively because of cost. SATA is about 50% cheaper, and I'd rather spend the money we save in hardware on more software/applications.

[richt]

Originally Posted by HomeyFour

... Besides file/print server, this box will also probably end up being an Exchange 2007 server as well. I think I'm set on SATA, almost exclusively because of cost. SATA is about 50% cheaper, and I'd rather spend the money we save in hardware on more software/applications.

If this will end up performing the functions of an AD domain controller (required for Exchange) and Exchange Server, don't buy based on lower price. You will quickly run out of storage space with Exchange, because unless you set policies, the mailbox sizes will just continue to grow. As time passes, you will need a higher performance RAID subsystem to support Exchange.

[HomeyFour]

Here's what I ended up with from Dell:

(skinny: 2x80gb RAID1 for the OS, 3x500gb RAID5 for data storage, hot-swappable SATA. IF we need more, I have 3 open bays, and we could go to SAS if SATA turns out to be too slow)

PowerEdge 2950 III
Quad Core Intel® Xeon® E5405, 2x6MB Cache, 2.0GHz, 1333MHz FSB, Windows Server® 2008, Standard x64 Edition,Includes 5 CALs
PowerEdge 2950 III Quad Core Intel® Xeon® E5405, 2x6MB Cache, 2.0GHz, 1333MHz FSB [223-4818]
Additional Processor Single Processor only [311-1193]
Memory 8GB 667MHz (4x2GB), Dual Ranked DIMMs [311-6197]
Keyboards, Mice, Displays and Related Devices No Keyboard or Mouse Selected [310-5017]
Optional Feature Upgrades for Integrated NIC Ports LOM NICs are TOE Ready [430-2968]
Riser Card Riser with 3 PCIe Slots [320-4607]
Primary Hard Drive 80GB 7.2K RPM Serial ATA 3Gbps 3.5-in HotPlug Hard Drive [341-3034]
Primary Controller Free! PERC6i SAS RAID Controller, 2x4 Connectors,PCIe, x6 Back [467-2726]
Floppy Drive No Floppy Drive for x6 Backplane [341-3685]
Operating System Windows Server® 2008, Standard x64 Edition,Includes 5 CALs [420-8354]
Network Adapter Dual Embedded Broadcom® NetXtreme II 5708 Gigabit Ethernet NIC [430-1764]
Remote Management Dell Remote Access Card, 5th Generation for PowerEdge Remote Management [313-3923]
CD/DVD Drive 24X IDE CD-RW/DVD ROM Drive [313-3934]
Bezel Rack Bezel [313-3920]
Backplane 1x6 Backplane for 3.5-inch Hard Drives [311-7936]
Documentation Electronic Documentation and OpenManage DVD Kit [310-7415]
2nd Hard Drive Free Upgrade! 80GB 7.2K RPM Serial ATA 3Gbps 3.5-in HotPlug Hard Drive [467-5225]
Hard Drive Configuration Integrated SAS/SATA RAID 1/RAID 5, PERC 6/i Integrated [341-5727]
Chassis Configuration Rack Chassis w/Sliding Rapid/Versa Rails and Cable Management Arm,Universal [310-7412]
Hardware Support Services 3Yr BASIC SUPPORT: 5x10 HW-Only, 5x10 NBD Onsite [984-1399]

Installation Services No Installation Assessment [900-9997]
Power Supply Redundant Power Supply with Dual Cords [310-9905]
OS Partitions 80GB Microsoft OS Partition Override [420-6967]
Power Cords Power Cord, NEMA 5-15P to C14, 15 amp, wall plug, 10 feet / 3 meter [310-8509]
4th Hard Drive 500GB 7.2K RPM Universal SATA 3Gbps 3.5-in HotPlug Hard Drive [341-4157]
5th Hard Drive 500GB 7.2K RPM Universal SATA 3Gbps 3.5-in HotPlug Hard Drive [341-4157]
3rd Hard Drive 500GB 7.2K RPM Universal SATA 3Gbps 3.5-in HotPlug Hard Drive [341-4157]
Uninterrupted Power Supply 1500VA UPS 120 Volt, Battery Backup & Protection ,2U Rack Mount [310-4335]
Additional Documentation PERC6/i English Documentation [310-9889]

[Jakesty]

Homey, how much did you end up spending on this? Do you need to buy more than the 5 cals to support the company now?
Did you get it in yet and how is it working out?
This machine would probably make a nice virtual server. I haven't tried Hyper-V yet since it requires 2008, but I'll be testing that soon. MS Virtual Server 2005 has run very well for us though.

[Darkk]

I've built a couple of Linux based VMware servers and it lets me load Windows 2003/08 Servers, Vista, WinXP and different flavors of Linux with ease.

Once the VMware servers are running you basically run it headless and use the VMWare Console on your own PC either Linux or Windows to manage it.

Alot of times once the OS been installed I just remote desktop into to manage it. Pretty slick.

Dakrk

[HomeyFour]

Originally Posted by Jakesty

Homey, how much did you end up spending on this? Do you need to buy more than the 5 cals to support the company now?
Did you get it in yet and how is it working out?
This machine would probably make a nice virtual server. I haven't tried Hyper-V yet since it requires 2008, but I'll be testing that soon. MS Virtual Server 2005 has run very well for us though.

I spend about $5,000 on the server, including 2008 Server and its included 5 CALs. We also are about to buy a 25-pack of additional CALs.

This thing is BLAZINGLY fast...