Beyond TV's biggest flaws

[phroman]

I really shouldn't have used the word flaws, I should have just said my suggestions for Beyond TV's future !

Now, let me start by saying that Beyond TV is probably the single greatest piece of computer software I've ever used. There is no application I use more or get more enjoyment out of, period. Thank you to the developers and to Snapstream for a great product. With that said, I think Beyond TV can and will become even better in the future. However in my opinion there are a few issues I consider very important, these may or may not already be in development, but I just wanted to put them forth.

1: Windows is dead. Vista couldn't have been a bigger failure unless it rendered all who use it sterile. Seriously, with Linux and Apple steadily gaining market share, Snapstream should really make versions of Beyond TV for these platforms. I'm not a programmer and don't pretend to have any idea of the difficulty in doing this, or even the possibility, but with things like Apple TV, it seems like a great fit.

2: Beyond TV should always be recording a 1 hour buffer. I had a few friends over a while ago and we all watched some show, when it finished, I just turned down the volume on my stereo and we hung out for a bit. 28 minutes later someone said, hey, rewind back to the start (of whatever was on) and we could watch that next show from the beginning. Well, I had just hit Menu on my firefly remote, loosing all of the buffer... Crap. Tivo is always recording a buffer, so should Beyond TV, always, regardless of weather you're watching live TV or at the main menu.

3: Full support for recording to multiple hard drives and multiple computers, with what I believe is called polling, so it's all globally accounted for when viewing your remaining recording time.

Let me finish up by restating how much I love Beyond TV, it's great software that I recommend to everyone I can. Please keep up the great work.

Phroman.

[DonK]

1. Yeah... it's sort of a downside that BTV is very Windows-centric in design. Depending on who you speak to it's either a good or a bad thing. Vista isn't super bad but it's not really on my "favorite list" of OSes either. I'm perfectly happy with XP SP3 on my systems, Vista is too much of a memory hog (uhh using half a gig of ram just at the desktop? PUHLEASE! Somebody shoot the programmers for such bloat!) for not enough justifiable reasons, and the interface... don't even get me started... lol BTV's based on .NET and that makes it all the harder to port, if not impossible to, for other OSes. They'd probably have to rewrite everything. As for things like the AppleTV, you can recompress to that format so that you can stream to it from an AppleTV.

2. BTV used to do that a loooong time ago in the 3.x days before 3.5 came out, but the way they rewrote the engine it stopped doing that. As a counterpoint to your suggestion, consider this: How long would your hard drive(s) last with multiple tuners spooling a buffer of different channels? Would you want BTV only spooling one channel, or one per tuner, and how would you define which one is always running a buffer??

3. It already does have recording to multiple drives, yes, the Pooling feature. Check the administrative web interface (http://btvmachinename:8129/SetupVideoFolders.aspx and add multiple folders on different drives, enabling pooling)

[Nick Burns]

In WebAdmin Time Shifting Settings (http://localhost/SetupTimeShifting.aspx), you can specify size & count to adjust the capacity of the LiveTV recording buffer.

I have mine set to:
size: 4200
count: 3
Capacity: 90 min at HD Quality.

[DancesWithLysol]

1: Windows is dead. Vista couldn't have been a bigger failure unless it rendered all who use it sterile. Seriously, with Linux and Apple steadily gaining market share, Snapstream should really make versions of Beyond TV for these platforms. I'm not a programmer and don't pretend to have any idea of the difficulty in doing this, or even the possibility, but with things like Apple TV, it seems like a great fit.

If Windows is dead, by those standards Linux and Mac OS X are worse than dead. I'm not trying to defend some of Microsoft's mistakes, but really, comments like this just make you look silly. I don't want this to sound mean here, but you don't know what you're talking about, and it shows.

Now, to your requests:

1. Apple TV: since BTV exposes an interface for software (iTunes) to "subscribe" to data, you'll be able to do this with the same RSS feeds that they use do the iPod integration. I haven't done this personally (using an Apple TV, but I have with my iPod touch).

From a business standpoint, even if Linux and Mac OS X users did add up to 10% of the market (its less than that), then I doubt it would be worth a substantial increase in development costs by Snapstream for them to try and capture 10% more revenue. This is especially true since Apple doesn't make any machines that are good for a BTV-based PVR. Linux machines, while having better hardware alternatives, have a much lower market share than Apple. Also, you need to consider that there are a lot fewer TV Tuner cards (with good drivers) available for Linux in the first place.

2. I agree with this suggestion.

3. I use BTV's hard drive pooling, and it works great for me!

If I were to add my requests, please Snapstream, I'd like full support for Vista 64, and not have running your software requre me to turn off Aero. While I prefer BTV to Vista Media Center for feature reasons, Media Center's UI is a lot nicer/cooler. I hope you can add some lipstick to BTVs interface for version 5.0! That sort of improvement sure makes a big difference to consumer focused products, and is easier for new customers to get excited about with all the fancy animations/screen transitions.

[tscales]

Personally I don't want them investing in other than Windows. It is absolutely dominate. Use XP.

BTV turning off the Aero interface has been configurable since 4.6. The knowledgebase is powerful:

http://snapstream.helpserve.com/inde...articleid=1459

[ZetaVu]

I disagree, while xp is what I use, I would prefer to be able to interoperate with linux, even if that means going through Wine. More importantly, windows is dead, as far as appliances go. It may still dominate desktops until we evolve completely into web based computing, sadly coming sooner than we think, but long term I see more and more pc functions taken over by appliances. In fact, if you build a pc strictly for recording tv, what the hell do you need windows for? You basically just need something to install btv on or whatever pvr you use. That's why Knoppix Mythtv is so appealing, small footprint, designed just for a pvr, if you want more functions you add to it. Build a remote server box to do the recording, and then use extenders on each tv to access the server, access remotely with your desktop pc for maintenance. Long term I hope they can install cards in the tvs to access any servers and run whatever pvr program you want with the tv's remote. And you can bet that will be linux based, almost all consumer devices like tivo are.

I think BTV needs to commit to a decent HD extender and write a linux version of link for that unit. Sage already has something like that, and its selling off the shelves.

[tscales]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I personally have no desire to bring Linux into my home environment. For the foreseeable future, years, Windows will be dominate in the home. Desktops, laptops, even Windows Home Server.

All Linux brings, for me, is another environment to learn and support.

I can't see a single feature that Linux brings to me that is a benefit. I don't have any desire for extenders. Nice maybe, but I have computers on my TVs.

As for Sage, define 'flying off the shelves'.

Just curious -- if you believe that, why haven't YOU switched to Sage?

[DancesWithLysol]

Sage already has something like that, and its selling off the shelves.

Please cite your source for this point. Did Sage publish their sales numbers, or are you just pulling that out of your ass?

The few other commercial software vendors that produce entertainment software (i.e. games) that have made a linux version software have said that their sales numbers of Linux are miserable - and have stopped making linux games. Even at id software, where John Carmack supports cross platform development, has admitted that it just doesn't make business sense to make a Linux version of their games.

That said, being able to use an XBOX or PS3 as an extender would be a huge selling point for BTV. If I were to suggest some non-Windows development, I'd recommend Snapstream produce some extender software for consoles. That would be smart.

More importantly, windows is dead, as far as appliances go.

Okay, if Windows is dead (as far as applications go), what OS isn't dead? Even if you assume that web applications have already taken over the world (they haven't, but software "in the cloud" is the trend), Windows is the best OS to have. You get the most choice for desktop software (which you still need), and new browsers come out for Windows first.

[DancesWithLysol]

Originally Posted by tscales

Personally I don't want them investing in other than Windows. It is absolutely dominate. Use XP.

BTV turning off the Aero interface has been configurable since 4.6. The knowledgebase is powerful:

http://snapstream.helpserve.com/inde...articleid=1459

Thanks the for tip!

[ZetaVu]

Flying off the shelves, aka they've sold out twice. Disclaimer, I don't own or use Sage, prefer btv, just monitor the other choices. I haven't switched to Sage because I do not like their interface, they way they handle pictures and music etc, I prefer Media Portal for other htpc functions and think BTV's pvr interface is superior, so the advantages of Sage over btv are not enough to overcome the disadvantages of Sage over BTV + MP.

Like you I have a PC for every tv, and I and my 8yr old use them exclusively. My wife doesn't unless she watches with me, even though using btv with a universal remote is as simple as watching directv on my system. I think with an extender on the main tv, that would not be an issue for her and others.

And yes, switching to linux takes a big learning curve, but I'm not going vista and probably not whatever m$ does next, since it looks like Windows 7 is just a tweaked up vista, probably just more drm. After that rumors are m$ will be focusing on web services, meaning the OS as we know it might be a thing of the past. (where do people get the idea that internet connections are reliable?) The reason I am looking at linux is that I don't need everything m$ throws into windows for most of my machines. Why should I have to pay them hundreds of dollars every few years because they decide they want to change things around and force developers to eventually stop supporting old versions? When xp is no longer supported by new hardware and software makers, (which hopefully won't be for many years to come) I expect to be 100% on Linux. Of course by then pvrs as we know them will not exist, and tv service will be radically different (maybe not OTA). Hell, each tv may come with a USB or similar port and a built in pvr. I expect most video and audio equipment to be more of computer appliances, interactive with each other, and that coding based on Linux. Computers will be used for computer stuff, tv's and appliances for movies, music, internet, etc. Sure, you can access and manipulate the devices from your desktop or laptop, but otherwise they do their jobs and life goes on.

So, linux desktop today tried to do what xp does already, but in the future linux appliances will do what windows does with a smaller footprint and less crap. The pvr of the future will be an appliance, connected to storage, accessible by computers, appliances, etc.

[ZetaVu]

Oh, the what software is used for appliances, most appliances like tivo use a version of linux or BSD. I hate to reference wikipedia but that is the top hit - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_appliance "Linux, and BSD to a lesser degree, has become the operating system of choice for this type of appliance."

And if you look into most extenders or networked dvd players out there, they are linux based as well. You guys need to separate the concept of desktop computer from computer, and again, I'm not talking about a desktop computer, I'm talking about a computer, that can be an appliance, designed specifically to be a pvr.

[DancesWithLysol]

Originally Posted by ZetaVu

Oh, the what software is used for appliances, most appliances like tivo use a version of linux or BSD. I hate to reference wikipedia but that is the top hit - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_appliance "Linux, and BSD to a lesser degree, has become the operating system of choice for this type of appliance."

And if you look into most extenders or networked dvd players out there, they are linux based as well. You guys need to separate the concept of desktop computer from computer, and again, I'm not talking about a desktop computer, I'm talking about a computer, that can be an appliance, designed specifically to be a pvr.

We're not confused on that point. I understand that if I were to order a DVR from my cable company, it will probably be running Linux. Its just that if its Snapstream made a Linux version of their software, we wouldn't be able to replace the OS on said Linux DVR with BTV, so that market is irrelevant to Snapstream.

Today, and for the forseeable future, the DIY PVR/DVR market is dominated by Windows PCs. Snapstream's customer base 100% windows based, and there are some advantages to focusing on a single platform vs multi-platform.

As a software developer myself, I run into this all the time when I see Java applications. Java apps are "write once, run everywhere", but everywhere they go they are second class citizens. Usually the developers write to Swing, or a similar UI class library that implements a lowest common denominator for UIs on all desktop platforms. Unless you're okay with bastardizing your code base and making it a lot harder to port, you're not going to take advantage to a lot of "special features" on each OS that your app can run on. You're not going to taking advantage of the features that makes Mac OS X special, or for Windows, or Linux, etc. None of that code is portable. Taking that path, Snapstream can do what Sage TV did and make a mediocre UI that will run everyone (using Java) and be a "me too" product that would be years behind SageTV in development.

A better choice (I think) is to take advantage of all the special features of writing your app in .NET and Windows. Take advantage of all the hardware accelerated features of the UI in Windows Vista (WPF, Media Foundation) and be the best you can be on that platform. That way you can be the better product for 90%+ of the market, and let Sage (Myth, or whatever) fight over the remaining 10% of the market.

[ZetaVu]

Ok, first, not talking about running btv on a tivo, but I do want to run it on meadia extenders or networked dvd players.

Second, how about you show me some reference proving windows is a more popular format for DIY pvr's? I personally have no such data, hell, I can't even get a feel for how big the DIY pvr market is. So, lacking any data to back your statement up, how about you rephrase it as your opinion.

Your last point makes some sense to me, writing in a specific code to take advantage of an OS, but yet I do not see performance improvements in btv vs sage. Both have the same video quality in my testing, in fact btv seems to be the bigger resource hog but then again they do a lot more pvr wise. With the interface I don't see any specific improvements running in net vs java vs whatever myth is (Python?) If there are specific performance benefits of btv over sage based on net vs java, what are they?

Lastly, btv tried to focus on vista, but then found that the vast majority of their customer base (over 80%) had no interest in vista. Grant it, vista did score higher than ubuntu and mac, but not by that much. Xp just works and if it could stay around forever I would not even mess with linux, but it won't, and vista and the future of m$ is crap.

[DancesWithLysol]

Xp just works and if it could stay around forever I would not even mess with linux, but it won't, and vista and the future of m$ is crap.

Specifically, what about Vista is crap (when compared to XP)? Aside from needing more memory to run comfortably, and needing a DirectX 9 class video card, what is so bad about Vista? Memory is cheap (2 x 2GB memory "kits" cost $75 now), so the "it takes too much memory" argument just doesn't matter when is so cheap to give Vista the memory it would like.

So, once you have the $1000 PC that Vista is targeting, whats wrong with it? Working as a software developer during the day, and being a computer hobbyist, I have access to a lot of different machines. On a daily basis I use Windows 2000, XP, Vista, Server 2000 through 2008, Mac OS X (10.4, 10.5), Red Hat, Ubuntu, and HP-UX. Well, I guess not on a daily basis, but I'd use them all weekly at a minimum. In my experience, Vista is equal or better to XP on most fronts given modern hardware. The only exception to this is when you have hardware that has stable XP drivers and unstable Vista drivers. That was a common problem in early to mid 2007, but I haven't seen those issues for about a year now. Of course, compared the the drivers issues you have as a Linux user, being a Vista is wonderful!

Plus, the forward-looking statement of "vista and the future of m$ is crap." How do you know? Have you used all the future Microsoft operating systems?

[ZetaVu]

How about this, name one thing about vista that is better than xp. It hogs more resources, it is slower, it is tangled up with nag screens and crippled with drm. The size is bloated with crap I never plan to use. You mentioned the driver issues, and of course most software had to work around the changes m$ made (antivirus etc). Directx10 is of little improvement, except maybe gamers, have game developers started taking advantage of it? Last articles I saw on the subject talked about game developers abandoning GPU and directx in the near future. Either way, getting back to drivers, have not had a single driver issue with ubuntu, but that may reflect the fact that I specifically purchase hardware that is supported in Ubuntu, which is typically the most popular hardware out there (and best priced)

And all my systems are well under $1000 to build, more like $500 for hardware, but I'm willing to bet for what I use it for it matches the performance of any $1000 pc. Quite simply, your argument is that vista is as good as xp, I don't see whre it is better, and I don't think your measuring things fairly. Xp is smaller, uses less resources, is faster, less buggy, more supported drivers, not locked into user restrictions (granted, this can be disabled in vista by those who know what they are doing) not handicapped by drm (and again in most cases this can be disabled by not using m$ products, hmmm, common theme there) and to be honest, I'm not alone in my opinion, look at market reaction. It is a dog, plain and simple.

If I want something as good as xp, hey, why not use xp? Why should I be forced to downgrade just because m$ needs to maintain steady revenue streams? The onyl reason people are downgrading to vista is that m$ is trying to kill xp, again, the issue with proprietary software. Hence, linux. I can take any build and it will remain functional, no m$ tax to upgrade, and if something needs changing I can learn to do it myself.

And my forward looking statement is based on studying the history of m$ and their anticompetitive practices. Windows 7 was supposed to be a trimmed down kernal and modular upgrade, however because of the complete failure of vista now it has been scrapped and transformed into vista se2. After that, I honestly don't know what m$ is planning, but from what I've read, they are looking more for web based services, negating much of the functionality required bytheir OS business model.