Questions on architecture that pre-sales bounces back because its too long!

[WorkForFood]

First, let me state that I tried to send this to the pre-sales support email address and it was refused because it was too long and there is no recourse for correcting that. I found that, disturbing...

Since, pre-sales support doesn't want questions sent to them, I don't have high hopes for getting any support on this product once purchased. Any thoughts or anecdotal information you want to share regarding responsiveness of the support group?

If there is anyone in the forums that wants to help out this vendor and answer the pre-sales questions that they don't want sent to them (again disturbing...) I would appreciate anything you have to offer.

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Hello,

I am considering replacing a mix of Windows MCE and GB-PVR functionality with your product set. I have provided information on my environment and have several questions at the bottom of this note. I realize I have provided a lot of information and that it is Friday, so if you cannot get to this until next week, that is no problem at all. I appreciate any insights you can provide.

There are several reasons why I am considering replacement (I’m sure you have heard some of these before):

1) Windows DRM restricts viewing some TV shows to the PC it was recorded on (I record it downstairs, but cannot watch it upstairs; how stupid is that?)

2) Windows MCE’s proprietary recording format doesn’t allow me to work with consumer or open source video utilities. In addition the quality appears to be intentionally degraded when you place the media on a DVD.

3) Windows MCE functionality isn’t available on all versions of Windows (or Linux) and so I have to run a variety of PVR software. I would like to consolidate to a single vendor which should make sharing between network nodes simpler.

4) GB-PVR Software running on Windows Professional is losing its ability to acquire (easily) the local TV schedule because zap-it.com will no longer be providing (free) data. A PVR without a schedule / scheduler is useless to me.

5) I have several hundred gigabytes of DIVX video that I watch using MCE, however MCE does not allow me to fast forward / reverse; it only allows me to skip which is very irritating. It also will not “remember” where I left off because there is no resume when viewing DIVX, AVI or MPG files.

6) I have grave concerns about the inclusion of enhanced DRM in Vista that will disallow fair use of recorded content on my network.

7) Watching DVD’s on MCE is hit or miss with MCE. I don’t know if it is DRM getting in the way or just poor implementation, but I’m hoping to not have to use Power DVD all the time (wife and kids don’t like it when they have to move away from their integrated MC environment).


PEER TO PEER SHARING IS A REQUIREMENT

I am currently running MCE and sharing all content through peer to peer sharing (I use a user developed utility*). I require the ability to continue to share peer to peer so that on my local network I can record on any node then view on any node. One of the reasons why this is important is that each PC has limited slots and it isn’t practical to put more then 2 TV cards per PC. I also move .dvr-ms files to Media Server 1 (see below) from the clients for long term storage of the TV shows (DRM protected TV recordings restricts this movement which ticks me off…)

* Share Recorded TV™ for Windows Media Center Edition® Version 1.02.0006 Copyright © 2003 The Office Maven


MY CURRENT ARCHITECTURE

My architecture is more complex then some home networks. Here are the basics (for what its worth):

NETWORK

Wired Network: 1 Gigabit (all wired nodes have 1 gigabit NIC’s)
Wireless Network: Belkin PRE-N (all wireless nodes are using the pre-n protocol, max 40mbps)


DATA SERVERS (Not currently involved in media sharing but could be…)

Data Server 1: Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Edition running VMware Server with 200GB SCSI RAID (stand-alone)
Data Server 2: Windows Server 2003 Standard Edition with 400GB PATA RAID (stand-alone)


PEER TO PEER NETWORK NODES

MEDIA SERVERS (Hosts DIVX files and provide long term storage of .dvr-ms)

Media Server 1: Windows XP MCE, 1.2 Terabyte SATA RAID, 2 TV cards
Media Server 2: Windows XP MCE, 400 Gigabytes SATA RAID, 2 TV cards

PVR CLIENTS (2 TV Cards each, Hauppauge MCE-250 or ATI TV Wonder Elite)

WinXP MCE Clients: 3 Wired, 1 Wireless (1 50” Plasma display, otherwise LCD monitors)
WinXP Pro Clients: 2 Wired both running GB-PVR software (LCD PC monitors)
Linux Clients: 1 Wired running Mythbuntu (LCD PC monitor)


QUESTIONS (finally)

1) If your product set will help with #1-#6 (above) and if so, how will it help?

2) If your product set will allow me to continue to use peer to peer sharing and will provide adequate performance across my network (we probably stream a max of 3 shows simultaneously across the network most often from Media Server 1)?

3) Are there any significant issues if / when I make a move towards Windows Vista, specifically if there are any DRM gotcha’s I should know about (related to your product)?

4) I am assuming that you use streaming video (the whole show doesn’t have to be copied to a temporary file on the the local PC before viewing) but it’s necessary to ask; does your product work like MCE and stream the media files across the local network?

5) Given my environment (9 clients currently involved in the media network; each with 1-2 TV cards) what type of costs would I incur in implementing your product set and what products would be involved?

6) Any problems copying recorded TV files between nodes? Do they retain meta-data information? Any DRM issues?

7) I am currently using either a Microsoft Media Center remote or the HP Media Center remote (both use line of sight IR). I have several ATI remotes but they don’t work well with MCE (not line of sight). Are there any issues with the remotes I currently use when implementing your product set?

[ZetaVu]

1. 1-6, not a problem with btv, it does all that, no restrictions. #7 requires either Beyond Media or another application at this time.

2. There is a way to stream shows through the webadmin using the free vlc player (over internet), and they sell BTV link if you want to stream high content within a network.

3. Works on vista, not so well on 64 bit vista at this time, most of us use xp. No forced DRM from vista.

4. Streaming is done with btvlink clients, or the vlc discussed above (which is a community project). You can stream livetv or recorded shows.

5. You would determine how many simultaneous recordings you want on one server, install the cards on that one, and setup all the link machines just with the software. So one copy of BTV for the server computer, one copy of link for each other computer. Pricing is on the main page.

6. Metadata is loaded in the files, it stays when copied, no drm, even have an option dvd plugin for burning. If you edit the file with another program you might lose metadata, but there is a plugin (btv negotiator) that lets you insert metadata from imdb and other places.

7. I use an ati remote, also used an x10 remote and hauppauge remote. MCE remotes work, many others. You might even qualify for a free firefly remote depending on which package they offer.

Beyond this, do some searching on the forums, most of your questions are already answered there. Try the trial, see how you like it. Only current issue is that btv is pvr only, all the other htpc features are in a second program, Beyond Media, currently a little stagnant.

[merrypig]

Originally Posted by WorkForFood

First, let me state that I tried to send this to the pre-sales support email address and it was refused because it was too long and there is no recourse for correcting that. I found that, disturbing...

Writing it short would have been my first thought... From what you posted most of it was saying what MCE did and could easily have been trimmed to simple requirements for btv.. but anyway, to answer the question.

1) Windows DRM restricts viewing some TV shows to the PC it was recorded on (I record it downstairs, but cannot watch it upstairs; how stupid is that?)

BTV does not add or implement DRM. If you can capture it, you can watch it.

2) Windows MCE’s proprietary recording format doesn’t allow me to work with consumer or open source video utilities. In addition the quality appears to be intentionally degraded when you place the media on a DVD.

Not a problem for BTV. You get standard mpeg2, wmv or divx files you can do what you like with. BTV does not degrade in any way, although you can intentionally do it to reduce bitrates to fit a dvd or such if you want to. up to you.

3) Windows MCE functionality isn’t available on all versions of Windows (or Linux) and so I have to run a variety of PVR software. I would like to consolidate to a single vendor which should make sharing between network nodes simpler.

What are you asking here? BTV runs on win 2k, win xp and now vista. Ditto the link client. No linux support yet.

4) GB-PVR Software running on Windows Professional is losing its ability to acquire (easily) the local TV schedule because zap-it.com will no longer be providing (free) data. A PVR without a schedule / scheduler is useless to me.

Snapstream get their own data feed and are not affected by zap-it.com's issues.

5) I have several hundred gigabytes of DIVX video that I watch using MCE, however MCE does not allow me to fast forward / reverse; it only allows me to skip which is very irritating. It also will not “remember” where I left off because there is no resume when viewing DIVX, AVI or MPG files.

not sure about divx, but BTV will offer to resume where you left off on the mpeg files, so I presume the same applies to wmv/divx (I only use mpg2)

6) I have grave concerns about the inclusion of enhanced DRM in Vista that will disallow fair use of recorded content on my network.

Don't use vista? Or use BTV.

7) Watching DVD’s on MCE is hit or miss with MCE. I don’t know if it is DRM getting in the way or just poor implementation, but I’m hoping to not have to use Power DVD all the time (wife and kids don’t like it when they have to move away from their integrated MC environment).

BTV does not play DVD's. BM can, but is not, IMHO a good dvd player. You can use powerdvd's codecs within another app ( I use zoomplayer) - or you can rip the dvd's to wmv/mpg/divx and then play within btv itself.

I am currently running MCE and sharing all content through peer to peer sharing (I use a user developed utility*). I require the ability to continue to share peer to peer so that on my local network I can record on any node then view on any node. One of the reasons why this is important is that each PC has limited slots and it isn’t practical to put more then 2 TV cards per PC. I also move .dvr-ms files to Media Server 1 (see below) from the clients for long term storage of the TV shows (DRM protected TV recordings restricts this movement which ticks me off…)

You don't need to do anything complicated. BTV link will let you view from any remote pc. Or you can share folders via windows networking and either use another player (wmplayer) or anothe btv license so have multiple servers running.
personally, I use one btv server license and multiple btv link clients to watch tv from any of my pcs or laptops in the house. Works nicely.

Ps. this isn't really peer to peer sharing. You'll get bad results if you ask for that as it's usually means someone wants to share files illegally over the network, rather than on a localnetwork. Just an IMHO, not the only interpretation of course.

Snipped. Really, your network configuration is fairly standard for BTV users. Sorry . The only thing that might need thought is the linux client; where you'll have to use samba to share the files from the windows server.

1) If your product set will help with #1-#6 (above) and if so, how will it help?

Yes, and easily?

2) If your product set will allow me to continue to use peer to peer sharing and will provide adequate performance across my network (we probably stream a max of 3 shows simultaneously across the network most often from Media Server 1)?

Not a problem. Use btv link clients. A gigabit network will manage just fine. you may have issues if you use wireless for streaming more than one show to different pc's, but this isn't a btv issue, this is true of any solution.

3) Are there any significant issues if / when I make a move towards Windows Vista, specifically if there are any DRM gotcha’s I should know about (related to your product)?

None that I know, read the forums for other users with HDTV/Vista - there are some issues with video graphics card drivers under vista but nothing btv does should be a cause of a problem. (to my knowledge, I don't use vista).

4) I am assuming that you use streaming video (the whole show doesn’t have to be copied to a temporary file on the the local PC before viewing) but it’s necessary to ask; does your product work like MCE and stream the media files across the local network?

Video is streamed as it's needed. Remote pc's can be real slim devices - unless you want to use HDTV, you can get away with remarkably old and slow machines. I have a AMD 1Ghz pc with a FX5200 doing all my video to a hdtv (sdtv recordings ) and it's flawless.. Haven't had to touch the disk at all.

5) Given my environment (9 clients currently involved in the media network; each with 1-2 TV cards) what type of costs would I incur in implementing your product set and what products would be involved?

Ah.. the rub. with tv cards in multiple pc's you will want a few server licenses. I would consider using the dual tuner cards in one or two pc's if you can to keep your server license outlay down to a cpl of licenses. You'll then want a btv link client on each remote machine you want to view from. (don't need a link client for the servers). Not sure on costs. See the webpage. Check out the enterprise offerings to if you deem yourself a power user and want a high tuner count setup.

6) Any problems copying recorded TV files between nodes? Do they retain meta-data information? Any DRM issues?

I believe metadata is stored within the files, but you are probably best letting btv do the copy for you ; you can schedule it to happen automatically or do manually and it'll ensure all data and tags get copied (such as 'already recorded etc')
no drm problems.

7) I am currently using either a Microsoft Media Center remote or the HP Media Center remote (both use line of sight IR). I have several ATI remotes but they don’t work well with MCE (not line of sight). Are there any issues with the remotes I currently use when implementing your product set?[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]

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Most remotes will work; some are supported natively. I personally use girder to handle my remote and feed key presses to snapstream. I do this as I customise my remote mappings depending on what is active at the time. You may or may not have interest in doing that but I would expect the MCE remote to be supported ? ... not able to test/confirm.

You will need to think about how to control your video sources; Whether using serial ports or an IR blaster with some kind of zone support. BTV can handle it, but you need to think /talk to the others on the forum about how best to implement it.

[Fonceur]

Talk about over-zealous spam filter at the Sales email...

While you could have multiple BTV servers with 2 tuners each, it would make much more sense to concentrate that into one or 2 BTV server(s), using dual tuners and/or USB tuners, while the other clients would connect through BTV-link... This way you can create all your Recording jobs at the same place and have BTV handle all the schedulling, otherwise you're looking at much more micro-managing...

[WorkForFood]

Wow, all fantastic replies. Thanks to all of you!

From what I have read here, this is an excellent solution with the only identified issue being the cost of server licenses. We have a large family, and each person sets up their own recordings on their PC. Yes, we do in fact get duplicates sometimes, but that's better then having one of the kids mess up my personal recording schedule! We are occasionally recording 4-6 programs at the same time. I don't have a PC or server that would allow me to put in that many TV cards. I've tried the dual TV cards but have found that the quality is compromised when compared to the single TV cards. I assume it is some kind of signal leak, but I probably don't know what I'm talking about. That means I would have to have 6-8 available PCI slots in a server (or 3-4 if I used both "Media Servers"; and with RAID and double wide video cards there just isn't that kind of expansion in what I have right now.

I will check the costs and try and determine how many of which licenses I need. Money is of course always an issue. If they allow for a full trial of all the various software, I can attempt to set up a mock implementation and see how it goes. I don't know if it matters, but I since everyone was so nice in answering my apparently absurdly long note; I will write back when I have finished the trial and let the forum users know my experiences.

Thanks again for the rock solid help on this. I think SnapStream owes you all a debt of gratitude for helping out on pre-sales!

[ZetaVu]

You can get full 21 day trials, just download from the website.

[Schro]

Originally Posted by WorkForFood

Wow, all fantastic replies. Thanks to all of you!

From what I have read here, this is an excellent solution with the only identified issue being the cost of server licenses. We have a large family, and each person sets up their own recordings on their PC. Yes, we do in fact get duplicates sometimes, but that's better then having one of the kids mess up my personal recording schedule!

I thought I would throw in a few items for thought on the single vs. multple server conifguration.

1. I havn't had issues using dual tuner cards from a quality perspective, so it may just be a signal strength issue within your own wiring at home that hits it as one split too many. A simple signal booster may resolve your issue.

2. When running BTV Link without a specific server specified, it will search the network for detected BTV servers and give the user a selection as to which one to connect to. In this scenario, all of the show schedules, etc, are handled independantly, and of course, can lead to duplicates. It'd be like a logical partition of the same thing, if that makes sense. On startup, you can specify in the command line what server they will connect to, i.e. basically the kids will only connect to the kids server and they'll never even see your server.

3. When running a single server, everyone will be able to see everything, and you'll have however many tuners available at your disposal. This is great from a centralized management standpoint, but its sounding like you're a better candidate for multiple server licenses.

4. Remotes. I used both the ATI Remote Wonder I and II for many years. I'm now using a gyration MCE remote that works great as well (all native). The only button that I havn't figured out (nor researched) is the big button in the middle of the remote that starts MCE when used on an MCE OS.