3.5 Big Disappointment

[HunterAP]

Greetings. I just felt the need to share with you my disappointment over Beyond TV 3.5.

I had purchased the BTV 3.4/PVR250BTV/FireFly combo about 2 months ago. It was AWESOME. When I read the feature list for 3.5, I was thrilled to know that I was going to be able to make use of my 2nd tuner. (WinTV Go)

Well, the countdown started for 3.5, and I was on the website at Midnight to grab it.

Now, after using it for a couple of weeks, I LOATHE it.

Shows are getting "missed," showsqueeze seems to work only when it feels like it, and my dreams of using my 2nd tuner have turned into a nightmare.

On top of that, I can no longer watch shows across my network because shows no longer properly stream. If I want to watch shows across the network, I have to buy another product. (BTV Link)

For all of the excitement I had regarding this product release, I am MORE disappointed about the reality of this release than I could ever have expected. I surely hope that the folks at SnapStream have been paying attention to their paying customers. I have purchased everything they were selling, and now, in order to get the same experience I was having with 3.4, I have to spend more money. That's not good customer service.

I sincerely hope that the folks at SnapStream fix this, "problem." But I feel that I need to make my voice heard about the 3.5 release. I have been patient, and I have tried to "make it work," but it appears as though this was simply a horrible product release.

[davefred99]

I think the real problem that snapstream has made is on the public relations front. They completely revamped the product added multi-tuner support and the ability to send live mpeg programing to networked computers but at the price of taking away some features that were available in the older version. Like Divix and streaming video.
This product is more like a 4.0 version and less like a revised 3.xx version. You still have the choice of running the older 3.4 version as long as they still support it. Like all for profit companies they must continue to build a revenue stream to cover all of there R&D and continuing operating expences. I believe that they should have sold this as a whole new upgrade that included one free btv link (client) included. The upgrade should have sold to existing customers for $29.95. They could then sell BTV 3.5 for $99.95 w/ one free Btv Link license included. Additional BTV Link Licenses should cost no more than $24.95 each. By priceing it this way they would would be very competative with other products like Sage Tv and MCE 2005. Instead they are overcharging for the BTV-link product to make up for the free upgrade to existing customers. There will be those that think that they are entitled to free upgrades for life but thats just not realistic. in the end its a fine line that they have to cross when balancing there customer relations and makeing money by continuing to offer ever better products. I think this product will eventualy get to where it should be but it is still a couple of patches away. I will continue to use it and hope that it gets better with age.
Dave.

[aluchsinger]

Yeah, I can imagine how much better I would have felt if I had spent $30 on a product that performs WORSE than the previous.

[Rich A]

It sure seems that the 3.5 release has polarized the users. There are a great many of us who are having no problems what so ever. And there there are others who have nothing but problems. It's like it either works great or is (as the original poster said) "a horrible release".

I don't want to get into a debate about the already much debated pricing and such, except to say I too don't like it. (but I'll pay it anyway)

I'm just curious why it's called by some "fantastic" and others "garbage"?

Personally I love 3.5 and don't have any of the problems mentioned and just LOVE being able to record two shows at the same time. No more scheduling conflicts .. it's reliable and the BTV smart skip works FAR better than my ReplayTV. (more accurate)

It sure is curious that there's such a "Love / Hate " only group of people. Or probably the question really is why does it work or NOT work ?? Stange ..

[clockhar]

personally, i don't like it (hate is too strong) becuase it runs like crap on my system compared to 3.4. i am running the following config:
AMD althon 1 GHZ
512 MB RAM
ATI 7500 AIW video card (not used for tv input)
Hauppage 250 Tv-tuner card
etc,

moving to .net and Directx 9.0 alienated a lot of us users with not-so-new computers. being a programmer, i understand why they did it, but it still annoys me that i must upgrade my hardware to run 3.5 smoothly (i'm kind of trapped into using it since 3.4 works like crap with Beyond Media Basic).

don't get me wrong, BTV 3.5 added some great features.

also, always on tv buffer is missing ... that's one of the small, hidden changes from 3.4 to 3.5

[maveriq62]

Yep, I agree. I don't see 3.5 as a step forward. However, I didn't want or need 2-tuner support right now so maybe that was a big enough feature for other people that made it a "great" release. The way I watch TV and use the product the fact that "always on" live TV buffer is no longer available is a big pain for me. I just view this as the "core" product slipping for some of these other fancy features. I understand the need for continued revenue and I would be willing to pay for updates, but I would not pay for the 3.5 release. Someone said something about it being poor PR on SS's part - you know if they would come out and acknowledge some of these things or at least explain why some things had to be dropped off. Or that they would consider adding options back in for those of us that liked them in 3.4 it would make me feel better about all the time and money I have dropped into this so far.

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by clockhar

personally, i don't like it (hate is too strong) becuase it runs like crap on my system compared to 3.4. i am running the following config:
AMD althon 1 GHZ
512 MB RAM
ATI 7500 AIW video card (not used for tv input)
Hauppage 250 Tv-tuner card
etc,

moving to .net and Directx 9.0 alienated a lot of us users with not-so-new computers. being a programmer, i understand why they did it, but it still annoys me that i must upgrade my hardware to run 3.5 smoothly (i'm kind of trapped into using it since 3.4 works like crap with Beyond Media Basic).

don't get me wrong, BTV 3.5 added some great features.

also, always on tv buffer is missing ... that's one of the small, hidden changes from 3.4 to 3.5

I hear you. Hmmm, maybe what they need is two versions. A "basic" version and a "server" version. Of course being a programmer, you can imagine the additional over-head that would be involved trying to support two versions.

But still, if so many guys have 3.4 working fine and for what ever reason can't get 3.5 working .. this would seem a logical approach to me. Clean up and lock in 3.4. Make 3.5 a full new version (server version). Offer the 3.4 current users an upgrade path. Otherwise charge a lesser amount for the non-server version and more for the server version to new clients.

Just a thought.

[Rich A]

The always on time shifting. Hmm, I would think that would actually work BETTER with a dual capture card system. But I wonder what the programming would be like (software programming) to have that and not create problems with the new multiple tuner option.

I don't use time shifting at all because I almost never watch live TV. BUT, if you think about it .. having a two tuner capability WITH always on time shifting, would be much more functional than always on with one tuner.

With a one "recording" system, if your always on buffer is running, then anytime a scheduled recording comes up WHILE you are watching live, time shifted TV, something has to give. Either stop the recording or the time shifting. One encoder can't do both at the same time.

BUT with a multiple tuner/encoder scenario, wow .. that would be GREAT. You could be watching your time shifted show on one encoder and when the scheduled recording comes up, you'll have a free tuner/encoder to do that.

Of course I'm sure there were other logistical problems, as including it and being able to use it with two tuners would be GREAT.

This is a problem with my ReplayTVs. If I'm watching a live show, and a scheduled recording comes up, I get a window telling me so and giving me so many seconds to either stop the scheduled recording or quite viewing live tv. My dual tuner BTV eliminates that problem. So I would think that being able to time shift real time TV AND record at the same time would be a fantastic plus ... Is the problem just that there is no "default" for always on and that you still can manually set it to on? Or is it that time shifting is no longer available? I must confess I don't know, as I don't use it. I'll have to look into that feature when I get home.

[maveriq62]

Rich A - From what I can tell they have the option for "always timeshift" in their XML files but even if it is set it does not appear to do anything.

Hey - I noticed in your sig you have the Antec Aria case. I was using that for a couple of months but kept running into overheating issues. It may have been my choice of of MB's because the NB chipset heatsink is very small, anyway I had to switch cases to keep it from shutting off from overheat. Did you do any case mods or are you just running it stock? Just curious, I really liked the case (it was small but that was the point . . . )

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by maveriq62

Rich A - From what I can tell they have the option for "always timeshift" in their XML files but even if it is set it does not appear to do anything.

Hey - I noticed in your sig you have the Antec Aria case. I was using that for a couple of months but kept running into overheating issues. It may have been my choice of of MB's because the NB chipset heatsink is very small, anyway I had to switch cases to keep it from shutting off from overheat. Did you do any case mods or are you just running it stock? Just curious, I really liked the case (it was small but that was the point . . . )

I don't know about you, but I seem to be collecting cases in my quest to find the "perfect" case for me. I like the Aria though. But as my BTV / HTPC keeps evolving I find now that I need more slots than the Aria can provide.

I notice it seems to be running just a tad on the hot side. Everything is pretty much stock except for the CPU cooler. Don't recall what I used and it wasn't really a big deal .. just provided a little more CFM air flow as opposed to the stock AMD cooler. Running 24/7 with two PVR-250s doing a lot of recording really heats up the box. I didn't put in the extra slot mounted cyclone fan either. Although somewhat hot, it's still in the ball park. I'll most likely swap it out with something else. My problem is that it's too noisy (maybe the higher capacity CPU cooler?) for my Home Theater. Those blue facia lights make it look pretty cool don't you think?

It was a real pain to squeeze everything into it. I have the two PCI PVR-x50s, an AGP graphics card, a DVD ROM drive, and two hard drives. What they don't tell you is the problem trying to fit a normal CPU cooler IF you use both sides for mounting hard drives. What temp does your case and CPU run? I'll check mine when I get home and maybe we can compare.

If I remember correctly the CPU cooler was a higher volume air flow but a lower profile fan than the stock AMDs. Also I don't think the stock fan would fit at all with the hard drive mounted in the vertical position on the CPU side. I've seen tips and pics of guys who have "cobbled" up something where they off-set the fan and held it in place with tape or something. Otherwise the back of the hard drive protrudes about 1/2 nch into the fan. I chose to search for a lower profile / higher performance fan. The problem as I mentioned earlier is that the fan is too noisy.

[tgi]

Originally Posted by clockhar

always on tv buffer is missing ... that's one of the small, hidden changes from 3.4 to 3.5

Gadzooks, Batman! That was an INTENTIONAL feature decreep?

I just assumed that I hadn't yet found the menu choice to enable Always Timeshifting. Lower priority than getting 3.5 to work at all.

That is my most-needed feature over just about anything else. What I had requested as an enhancement was for a "Record Now" option to toss the timeshifting buffer into the recording.

Well, just one more poor cutomer-relations choice that's going to contribute to my impending decision to demand a refund for the 4× 250BTV tuner cards I just bought from SnapStream.

My mistake to expect 3.5 to be better than 3.4.4

3.4.4 is running smoothly on one PC, and has been for nearly 2 months. I've now been battling for 4 days trying to get 3.5 to talk with any of the brand-new 250BTV's, in any PCI slot, singly or in various combinations. So far, no luck. Hauppauge WinTV2000 shows correct video (no audio, but that's unsurprising with the cautions about 250 and 250BTV requiring different drivers), and can change channels correctly. So, hardware seems to work.

I've even re-installed Windows 2000 (along with a full pass through the 68+ Windows Update items, plus Media Player 9 and DirectX 9.0c) from scratch EIGHT times now, just to ensure that I was starting from a completely virgin, clean system config. That alone costs about 4 hours elapsed time per re-install.

Nothing seems to produce a working relationship between SnapStream's hardware (250BTV) and SnapStream's software (BTV 3.5). Setup Wizard gripes "Failed to build live TV Graph; Either your TV feed is disconnected or tuned to an invalid channel" when attempting to preview video/audio (although, oddly, it can correctly identify valid channels, and skip missing ones, during Channel Scan, so it's able to talk to the card on some level), and launching 3.5's GUI produces a partially painted corporate logo, then an unceremonious vanishing of the window (and task). Not a peep in the log file.

The big draw for me with 3.5 was multiple tuners. However, I did expect a superset of 3.4 features (notably Always Timeshifting). Having 3.5 arrive in such bad condition that it won't even talk to SnapStream's own custom card is simply unacceptable.

It's looking increasingly likely that SnapStream has lost me as a customer. To be fair, I will continue for another couple of days to debug this, but it's looking pretty hopeless. I really feel for some of the others that have posted with their nightmares. I have decades of experience as a software developer, including a 5-year stint in VoIP telephony, so multimedia applications (on both Unix/Linux and Windows platforms) are very familiar to me.

Looks like it's time to wipe out Windows 2000 and drop in Linux, in preparation for switching over to MythTV.

Sigh.

Hey, maybe MythTV will work with 250BTV's.

I'll keep my fingers crossed...

[Tony Whetstone]

I just tried version 3.5 again for the second time. And for the second time, I am going back to 3.4. First time I just could not get 3.5 to work, wouldn't talk to snapstream.net etc. Finally played with it again over the weekend and worked threw the bugs. Appearently .net for XP doesn't have a file that .net/2000 uses for the web admin page to work. Once I got the file the web admin worked. But the past 2 mornings since I installed 3.5 my computer is basically frozen up. I end up having to just kill the power to reboot it. Never had this problem with 3.4. So back to 3.4 for me.

AMD 2700+
512 ram
Geforce4 ti4600 128 video
PVR-350 capture card
250 gig hd
WinXP SP2 .net 1.1

[Tony Whetstone]

Spoke too soon I guess, 3.4 won't reinstall for some reason

[Bilar Crais]

Originally Posted by Tony Whetstone

Spoke too soon I guess, 3.4 won't reinstall for some reason

Each installation of BTV, even after running the uninstall program, leaves about 400 to 500 entries in the registry. After uninstalling, I do a registry search for "BTV" "snapstream" and "PVS" to clean it up. Make sure you also delete any residual folders in shared documents, documents and settings/all users/application data/snapstream, program files/common files/snapstream, and programfiles/snapstream. I use a little program called JV16 to quickly find these entries and batch delete them.

[theparanoid]

Originally Posted by davefred99

I think the real problem that snapstream has made is on the public relations front. They completely revamped the product added multi-tuner support and the ability to send live mpeg programing to networked computers but at the price of taking away some features that were available in the older version. Like Divix and streaming video.
This product is more like a 4.0 version and less like a revised 3.xx version. You still have the choice of running the older 3.4 version as long as they still support it. Like all for profit companies they must continue to build a revenue stream to cover all of there R&D and continuing operating expences. I believe that they should have sold this as a whole new upgrade that included one free btv link (client) included. The upgrade should have sold to existing customers for $29.95. They could then sell BTV 3.5 for $99.95 w/ one free Btv Link license included. Additional BTV Link Licenses should cost no more than $24.95 each. By priceing it this way they would would be very competative with other products like Sage Tv and MCE 2005. Instead they are overcharging for the BTV-link product to make up for the free upgrade to existing customers. There will be those that think that they are entitled to free upgrades for life but thats just not realistic. in the end its a fine line that they have to cross when balancing there customer relations and makeing money by continuing to offer ever better products. I think this product will eventualy get to where it should be but it is still a couple of patches away. I will continue to use it and hope that it gets better with age.
Dave.

Ok let me get this straight.

You think snapstream should charge everyone 29.95 to upgrade to this version. And are complaining cause they gave everyone a free upgrade and are only asking those that want to tun the intreface on a second computer, something they could not do in the old version anyway without another licence of beyond tv on (not counting the webinterface that still there)

They only charging 39.99 to those that want a second beyond tv interface to watch on different pc. That sound every reasonable to me after all they gave us all a free upgrade with two tuner licences. Must compnay charge for upgrades.

Heck a lot companys would charge for the upgrade and then charge for the client.