February 2009, Digital cable, and my Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-500 MCE

[Buckshot]

I apologize in advance if this has been addressed elsewhere, but my searches didn't come up with anything directly answering my questions.

In February of 2009, my basic analog cable will stop working as everything will need to be digital. My HTPC is currently using a Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-500 MCE as the tuner card, my TV is just plain old analog. I don't want to change my TV until it dies a smoky death, I also don't want to have to do anything silly like make sure the digital converter box (my cable company is likely to provide) is set to a certain channel and my HTPC is set to channel 3 just to record a show (it's going to be bad enough just to have to do this to watch TV). So, any recommendations on an equivalent replacement for my current tuner card with something that will be able to convert the digital signal on its own? Dual tuner preferred. And, of course, Beyond TV needs to be able to recognize it.

Much thanks.

[jonnydeath]

Most likely your cable company will still provide the analog signal well past Feb 2009.

Nevertheless, the hdhomerun (which you can buy from snapstream for $170) will tune two unencrypted digital cable (or QAM) channels at the same time. It works well with beyondtv, except you can only have 68 channels in your lineup. I have one hdhomerun and one PVR-500MCE on the same machine.

I believe cable companies do not have to give you all the basic cable channel unencrypted. They just need to provide you with the over-the-air channels unencrypted. My cable company however does give all the basic channels over QAM unencrypted.

The HDHomerun also tunes the channels in HD, and it is beautiful.

[mayhem70]

Just so we are clear...
The DTV switch over that is happening is for OTA. OTA = Over the Air. https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx

[NickHark]

The whole point of the switch to HD is to give law enforcement the over-the-air frequencies; and unless the cops start using Comcast to send out all-points-bulletins, you can continue with your setup as is.

[DonK]

Cable companies will be required for 3 years to provide analog cable to it's subscribers, as well as provide the local OTA channels in analog format or provide them a box to watch them without charge (but may allow charging for the box, not the channels). So you're good till 2012 for analog cable.

[richt]

Originally Posted by DonK

Cable companies will be required for 3 years to provide analog cable to it's subscribers, as well as provide the local OTA channels in analog format or provide them a box to watch them without charge (but may allow charging for the box, not the channels). So you're good till 2012 for analog cable.

One of the problems is that Comcast in my area is dropping analog channels every other month. If they keep it up, by the time Feb. 2009 rolls around there will only be a minimal number of analog channels left. If they make the decision to go digital and provide a converter box, then the PVR500 will require a converter box for each tuner. And there goes your ability to watch one channel and record another.
I currently have an HDHR so there isn't too much of a problem for me, but Snapstream does need to pick up the pace in supporting other inexpensive clear QAM solutions. I don't think the extra few years the FCC has mandated for cable will amount to much as the cable companies will be driving to go digital as soon as they can. It only makes sense since digital systems provide them greater flexibility and are where they need to be in a few years.

[ryansebiz]

Cable companies are going to be sending out analog signals for a long time.

[Timbert]

I got six converter boxes to try on my 6-tuner setup and have started playing around with it. It seems the output from the converter will only go to channel 3 or 4. So BTV can technically record, but the guide won't work, will it? If I took two converters, tuned each to a channel I want to record, set one to output on CH3 and the other to output to CH4, then used a combiner to get the two RF connections into the single RF connector on the Hauppauge 500, the card would see two channels (3 and 4), but what about the guide? If I set up the other four converter boxes the same way, how will BTV handle it? Will it see all 6 "real" channels?

My only other thought of a solution (getting in over my head here) is to use a six-channel modulator, which would take the output from all six converters and map them to their six different channels and put it all on a single coax that goes to each capture card.

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by Timbert

I got six converter boxes to try on my 6-tuner setup and have started playing around with it. It seems the output from the converter will only go to channel 3 or 4. So BTV can technically record, but the guide won't work, will it? If I took two converters, tuned each to a channel I want to record, set one to output on CH3 and the other to output to CH4, then used a combiner to get the two RF connections into the single RF connector on the Hauppauge 500, the card would see two channels (3 and 4), but what about the guide? If I set up the other four converter boxes the same way, how will BTV handle it? Will it see all 6 "real" channels?

My only other thought of a solution (getting in over my head here) is to use a six-channel modulator, which would take the output from all six converters and map them to their six different channels and put it all on a single coax that goes to each capture card.

You shouldn't be using the RF out of the cable box. Use it's composite or S-Video output to your PC Tuner cards composite or S-video input.

[jonnydeath]

Originally Posted by ryansebiz

Cable companies are going to be sending out analog signals for a long time.

I guess I am going against what I already said. It appears RCN in Boston has decided to get rid of analog entirely. It should be done by June 2009. Even worse, they have already begun encrypting QAM channels (including HD local feeds).

[Rich A]

Originally Posted by jonnydeath

I guess I am going against what I already said. It appears RCN in Boston has decided to get rid of analog entirely. It should be done by June 2009. Even worse, they have already begun encrypting QAM channels (including HD local feeds).

Maybe a note to the FCC about them might do something? They ARE reportable to the FCC and have to get their license (cable) which is involving the FCC.

I do know is it an FCC mandate that cable companies continue to provide analog service up to at least 2012.

In any case, in order to work as a cable provider they have to include the locally available stations in their basic tier of service. Which means if you pay for even the lowest available service, they have to provide those locally available over the air stations with that service. Now they COULD provide those stations in any format .. ie digital SD, or digital HD or analog.

They of course can take and move around or add or delete ANY channel that is of a cable specific source. Those are not available off the air. Maybe those are the ones you see getting moved around?

[jonnydeath]

I always thought they had to carry them to, but I guess not. I think they will continue to carry SD over-the-air channels over clearQAM, but thats it, no HD and no analog. They are trying to get a waiver to stop analog. There is discussion in the Boston RCN QAM thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=596134&page=7

if the link doesn't work, google "Boston RCN QAM" and it comes right up.

[Rich A]

Well there still is a lot of confusion about this matter. I'll try to be "specific". First we must not just throw out various words without knowing what they really mean.

High Definition (HD):
That is Digital. And can only be 720 (1280 x 720) or 1080 (1920 x 1080).

Standard Definitions: (SD)
That can be in Digital or Analog format. It is 480 (720 x 480)

Many times guys use the term HD when they are actually talking about standard def. digital. This is wrong. HD can only be 720 or 1080. Digital 480 is a Standard Definition.

There are two things we are talking about.

First: The cable co's only have to provide the "locally available OTA" stations as part of their basic cable package. And they only have to provide them in SD content. And they have the option to provide them in Analog, OR digital or both.

If those basic over the air stations are transmitting High Definition, then the cable Co's. only have to provide a digital SD version or an analog version to keep in step with the FCC. Some cable companies (like our Cox Cable here in CT) send us all the locally available digital stations and when those station transmit in 720 or 1080, we also get it that way. Otherwise it is digital SD (480). We get the locally available stations in both analog and digital. This is fully an option for the cable company. Our Cox cable (so far) is providing actual HD in clear QAM when the networks broadcast it. BUT Cox only really HAS to provide said stations in SD ... We are fortunate they are still giving us HD content in clear QAM. That might and could change.

If you see HD clear QAM disappearing then that is okay for the cable company to do. People often throw about the term HD and don't realize that it is DIGITAL and there IS a standard definition for Digital which is 480. But it is still digital. So technically to be correct when using the term HD it can only be digital and either 720, or 1080. NOT 480.

When using the term SD, that can be applied to either analog or Digital (at 480)

But they have to continue to provide those locally available OTA stations as part of their basic package. And they only "have" to provide them in SD in some format of their choice.

That's one thing.

The other thing is that IF they are presently providing analog cable tv now, they have to continue to do so until 2012. So the bottom line is that if you are using an analog capture device (like a Haupauge analog tuner) it should be good until 2012. This includes what-ever you are currently getting via analog. Not JUST the local OTA. If your analog stations completely go away, then I'd get in touch with the FCC. Cus they can't do that until 2012

I quickly browsed the aforementioned link and didn't see anything contradicting what I just explained. I'll give it a more detailed read later just to be sure.

On a lighter and OT note .. It's interesting that the ancient Aztecs had an incredibly accurate calendar they used way before Columbus (or the Vikings) sailed the ocean to our shores. And that calendar abruptly ends in the year ... 2012 ... There is a lot of debate on why they stopped at 2012. (the Mayan calendar also stops at December 2012) Some people say they are predicting the end of the world.

Soooo I guess the FCC is buying into that and figures we only need analog Cable TV until that date.

[Rich A]

Things aren't exactly black and white. I did considerable sleuthing on the FCC web site. I have to amend my prior statement.

An update (and possible loophole for the cable companies)

The following is a direct quote from the FCC FAQ page on the FCC web site.

(quote)
First, it's important to know that the February 17, 2009 deadline for the digital television transition only applies to full-power broadcast stations. Cable companies are not required by the government to transition their systems to digital, and can continue to deliver channels to their customers in analog. Cable companies are actually required by FCC rules to continue offering local broadcast stations to their customers in analog as long as they offer any analog service. This requirement will continue for at least three years after February 17, 2009. The Commission will decide in 2011 whether the requirement should be continued beyond February 17, 2012. This means that customers who receive analog cable service (without a cable set-top box) will be able to continue to do so.
(end quote)

And here is the loop hole. Cable companies are actually required by FCC rules to continue offering local broadcast stations to their customers in analog as long as they offer any analog service

So I guess if they just nuke ANY and ALL analog service, then they can go 100 percent digital. But IF they are providing ANY analog at all ... then they HAVE to provide those local stations in analog.

Where this gets confusing is if they go 100 percent digital .. then I'm assuming they STILL have to provide those local OTA stations in their basic digital tier. And they really only HAVE to provide them in Digital SD. And to be part of their basic package those OTA cable supplied channels will have to be Clear QAM.

Recently Cox cable sent out with their bills a promise to actually convert the OTA digital signals (that Cox provides via cable) back down to analog when those analog OTA go away in 2009. Just so we Cox customers can continue to use what ever analog display (or capture) devices we are currently using. And they say they will continue to provide full normal analog service until at least 2012. I guess "RCN" is only looking for $$ and not customer satisfaction.

But I still say (after reading the AVS thread supplied about this subject) the people there are saying that they ARE indeed still getting the local OTA channels via Clear QAM. RCN is just encrypting all the rest of the formerly clear qam which they certainly can legally do.

[GabeBillings]

Anyone have any updates to this issue?

I got a letter from Comcast a week or so ago about their own upcoming switch to digital. As I understand it, after February they're going to ditch all their analog channels above 30. So all the major networks will still be available in analog.

My current setup involve 2 Hauppauge tuners; a dual analog, a digital/analog, and an HDHomerun. The HDHR is getting Comcast's QAM, which gets me all the major networks in HD. I'm hoping that will remain unchanged after the switch.

The other digital tuner is getting OTA HD broadcasting which will obviously remain unchanged.

So what's left is the 3 analog tuners. It sounds like they'll still work fine as long as I'm dealing with the channels under 30. The problem is that's what the other 3 tuners are already doing. I really only use the analog tuners for a handful of channels above 30. The wife likes to watch some HGTV shows, the kids need the Disney channel, etc.

So I stopped by Comcast today to pick up my conversion kits. They'll give you up to 3 basic ones for no charge, but I paid an extra $1 a month for one of them to be a basic digital cable box, so I could get On-Demand stuff if I wanted.

The cable box has composite outs, so at the very least I figure I can feed that into one of my existing tuners and use an IR blaster to control it, letting me use one of them.

I'm not sure what to do with the other two, though. I opened up one of the conversion kits to check it out. They're small converter boxes that only have a coax in and out. I'm guessing that feeding that into the tuners is going to do anything.

I'm just curious if anyone else has gone through this, or has any ideas. It seems like I might be able to use the box and the two converters, one for each of the analog tuners, as long as I could work out a way for the IR blaster to control each of the three individually.

Any thoughts?