Beyond TV vs Tivo Series 3 Vs Sage TV

[w2jo]

I have been trying my best for 4 months to assemble a PVR system to replace my old Tivo Model 1. I thought I would come forward with my results for critique and consideration.
===================
I have used a Tivo model 1 for years and love it. But when it came time for HDTV, I decided to try a "build your own" PVR using Beyond TV or Sage TV. I have done so and, to make a long story short, in the end, I bought a Tivo Series 3 PVR.

Problems with the Beyond TV and Sage TV approaches?
1) Tuner cards with drivers not compatible with running two cards together (Dvico).
2) Tuner cards that cannot accept cable cards and so limit you to OTA HDTV and analog cable channels.
3) Tuner cards without a hardware encoder on analog channels. This causes excessive CPU utilization (and stuttering video) when recording two analog channels and watching a HDTV channel. This with a dual core 4200+ghz cpu and this was better than two other MBs I tried. Things get worse with a little disk fragmentation.
4) SageTv has lots of features for "geeks" but is missing lots of features.. Such as an easy way to tell the software to pick HDTV channels instead of non-HDTV channels with the same program.
5) BTV has a pretty good GUI and good remote controls. Still, it suffers from stuttering and pixelation when recording two analog programs while watching an HDTV program with my hardware. This is really a hardware problem (3 above) but I was not able to overcome it.
6) I had to go through three video cards before I found one that would give me dual displays while playing back HDTV.

So.. Now I just decided to give up and buy the $800 Tivo series 3 with the $199 lifetime EPG transfer price. Expensive, but I spent considerably more (and a LOT of time!) trying to get a dual tuner HDTV alternative to work and .. I failed to come close to Tivo Series 3 features and performance.

If SnapStream wants to have more happy customers, they should post at least ONE "benchmark hardware configuration" that they KNOW will work well with DUAL HDTV/Analog hardware encoding tuners. I am hoping that such a benchmark configuration exists!

For those who want the gory details, see:
http://gpsinformation.info/joe/HDTVpvrconfig.html

[Sn00p]

Hi w2jo,

I'm really sad to hear your story ...

In fact, in a perfect world everything out of the box would work the first time you press power. In a perfect world, hardware would last a life time. In a perfect world, you would not even know what is an “extended warranty”! Unfortunately, we are not living in a perfect world! And this is especially true with computers (I have been working with computers since 1984)! Every new generation is better than the one before (at least with more features)… What seems fast to me 5 years ago is today completely obsolete…

Also, HD is just beginning to stream on more and more channels (still a new technology)… And, at a high price point, HDDVD and BlueRay are fighting to have a space in your AV-rack (and these players are still far from being perfect)…

My point is:

- Every great invention came with a price… Time, trials and errors… People devoted to find a solution. Why? To make things better for the future generations… We are experimenting, trying, thinking about new ways to do things… Like J.F. Kennedy said: “Not because they are easy but because they are hard!”

- Out of the box nothing will beat a Tivo… But for more flexibility and “fun” trying new stuff nothing will beat a computer (at least not until now)!

I'll take the occasion to thank all the people on the Snapstream Forums whom helped me building my dream machine!!!

Don’t get me wrong! I approve your choice… But for me, if I can make things a little better than I know I have succeeded!

Thank you w2jo for sharing your story… You are going to help people!

By the way, what are you going to do with all that computer stuff? Are you going to sell it? Just kidding…

[tscales]

Sorry you had so many problems. It certainly requires more effort to get BTV or any PC based system setup perfectly. Try Windows Media Center -- you'll run from the room screaming.

I did have some comments below.

Originally Posted by w2jo

1) Tuner cards with drivers not compatible with running two cards together (Dvico).

I have a machine with three different models of Dvico card, plus one ATI TV Wonder 650, one Hauppauge PVR-950 (both doing OTA HD), one PVR-500 (dual tuner SD) and two Hauppauge PVR-USB2 -- all at once. What problems did you have with the Dvicos. They're actually the best at running together.

2) Tuner cards that cannot accept cable cards and so limit you to OTA HDTV and analog cable channels.

Blame congress and the cable monopoly. I can live with this given the significant features of BTV that Tivo doesn't have. Can you copy a show from your TV to your laptop or your IPod? I can. Can you watch it from any TV in the house? I can.

3) Tuner cards without a hardware encoder on analog channels. This causes excessive CPU utilization (and stuttering video) when recording two analog channels and watching a HDTV channel. This with a dual core 4200+ghz cpu and this was better than two other MBs I tried. Things get worse with a little disk fragmentation.

Sorry, but this was just lack of research on your part. 10 minutes in this forum and you would have known to by a hardware card. I can record multiple SD and HD and watch at the same time on a much less powerful machine than yours.

4) SageTv has lots of features for "geeks" but is missing lots of features.. Such as an easy way to tell the software to pick HDTV channels instead of non-HDTV channels with the same program.

So use BTV. It's smarter.

5) BTV has a pretty good GUI and good remote controls. Still, it suffers from stuttering and pixelation when recording two analog programs while watching an HDTV program with my hardware. This is really a hardware problem (3 above) but I was not able to overcome it.

Doesn't stutter on any of my machines, even low-end machines using integrated Intel video. Again, use of these forums would likely have cleared up the problem. I find it best to dedicate a machine as a server -- but my machines cost about $200 -- certainly less than your Tivo.

6) I had to go through three video cards before I found one that would give me dual displays while playing back HDTV.

As I said, that's not the best way to do it. Dedicate a cheap machine to being a server.


So.. Now I just decided to give up and buy the $800 Tivo series 3 with the $199 lifetime transfer price. Expensive, but I spent considerably more (and a LOT of time!) trying to get a dual tuner HDTV alternative to work and .. I failed to come close to Tivo Series 3 features and performance.

If SnapStream wants to have more happy customers, they need to post at least ONE "benchmark hardware configuration" that will work with DUAL HDTV/Analog tuners.

Darn near any of them. I've run dual HD/SD on P4-2.4 machines from 2002.

For those who want the gory details, see:
http://gpsinformation.info/joe/HDTVpvrconfig.html

No thanks. I'd rather read successes of people that asked for help, got it and were happy. I'm sorry you had problems. Tivo is the best solution for those that want a packaged approach without learning or trying much.

Tom

[w2jo]

I really do appreciate that some people are happy with their BTV and SageTV equipment. I did expect that by now there would be "A" hardware configuration that would work without serious stuttering problems with dual tuners. I did not find one.

Did I do my research?

Well, I posted on THIS forum multiple times asking for configuration advice. In fact, on my third MB configuration, I bought the EXACT MB/CPU/Memory/Video Card/Tuner Card configuration that one individual claimed was working perfectly for him. For me, the configuration a) would not work with the dual Dvico HDTV5 GOLD tuner cards as claimed. (resource conflicts). and b) I had video and audio stuttering on playback when recording two analog channels while playing back one HDTV program (using one Dvico PCI card and one ATI HDTV WONDER tuner card as described.)

Did I do my research?

I asked BTV twice via email to recommend JUST ONE hardware configuration that was KNOWN TO WORK properly using two HDTV capabile tuner cards. I received NO ANSWER which should indeed have been a sure and certain flag..

But.. I learned a lot of things about the technology and I am sure that if I made a server version and added a client computer that I could make a multiple tuner configuration work. I say this because if I RECORD two analog programs and do not play back an HDTV program with my present equipment, I do not get stuttering.

SageTV just sent me an updated (beta) Dvico driver dll that they claim fixes the "can't make two Fusion Gold tuners work properly in one MB" problem so maybe that problem is fixed. But this dll is not yet available in ANY Dvico release as of this date as far as I know.

While I am an EE, I did not start out thinking that assembling one of these machines with dual HDTV tuners was going to be a development project. I was looking for a "ready to go" software/hardware package sort of like what you get when you want to assemble a mailserver, building automation system, hotspot router, or other computer based system. Instead, I found a system that works VERY well with a single tuner card (but without CableCard as yet for HDTV). But beyond that simple configuration there were (in my own experience) lots of driver and operational problems that are not yet solved.

Yes.. My A8N-SLI-Premium MB system would record two HDTV programs while playing back one HDTV program and do this job perfectly. No. It wouold not record two analog programs while playing back one HDTV program without stuttering. Some may consider this performance "OK". I do not.

I am delighted that now there is a new ATI Theater 650 tuner card out there with a hardware encoder for analog channels. A pair of these may be the solution for the stuttering problem noted above. And when they have a Theater 650 card with CableCard capability, I may well revisit the technology. Meanwhile, I hope my experiences and my writeup alert potential system builders to the build problems with the currently available hardware so they will --at least-- not make the SAME expensive mistakes I did!

[btvfreak]

FWIW, I have the same Asus mobo and I have 3 HD tuners (2 Fusion5 USB, 1 Hauppauge HVR-950) and I can record several HD and SD shows at once while playing back a previously recorded HD or SD show.

The issue with 2 Fusion5 cards is with the PCI cards, which are known to cause IRQ conflicts. I have 2 of the USB versions.

You can check out the specs of my server and clients in my sig. Sounds like you have a better server config than I do.

[w2jo]

Great! I wish I had known up front that the PCI version Dvico fusion tuners had compability problems that the USB versions did not! Seems like this information should be posted in highlighted notes on the BTV website where they list compatible tuners.

This is the sort of information that would have been EXTREMELY USEFUL to have had when I started to build my system. Why does BTV not post this kind of essential to have information in a section on their website entitled:

NOTES FOR MULTIPLE TUNER SYSTEM BUILDERS

Such application advice sure would save lots of grief, costs, and frustration for system builders. As it is, the implication is that if a system configuration works great with ONE tuner, it will work fine with MULTIPLE tuners.. Ain;t so!

Not to mention that such an application note would likely be a GREAT TOOL for SnapStream toward earning a lot more satisfied customers. As I said before, I like BTV and will likely revisit once CableCard compatible tuners are available for use with BTV. Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy my Tivo Series 3 HDTV PVR appliance! Worked right out of the box and cost less overall than I put into my PC configuration. I was fortunate to have a lifetime EPG to transfer for it. Otherwise, the EPG yearly cost of $100 for the TiVo system would be too much to bear! Which was one reason I decided to try the "build your own" approach in the first place.

[tscales]

Well, let me jump back in and apologize. I wrote my response early in the morning and as I re-read it, I was incredibly rude and obnoxious and condescending. I really am sorry -- guess it was just the start of a bad day.

BTV can be incredibly complicated and time-consuming. I've been running it since early in V3 and add features and complexity over time. So, I sort of grew up with it and it is second nature.

I do encourage you to keep trying. Work your way into it, one tuner at a time and I assure you it will be great. I couldn't live without it.

Tom

[Bigbird999]

I asked BTV twice via email to recommend JUST ONE hardware configuration that was KNOWN TO WORK properly using two HDTV capabile tuner cards.

And if they had told you what worked for them, and it was the same as this

In fact, on my third MB configuration, I bought the EXACT MB/CPU/Memory/Video Card/Tuner Card configuration that one individual claimed was working perfectly for him.

I guess you would be blaming SS for it not working.

If you want something that works out of the box, with a guaranteed hardware configuration, TIVO is the best choice for you. This guarantee comes at a price. You cannot increase your storage, add more tuners, easily archive your recordings, etc. You are not the boss of your media, TIVO is, and you have to pay them just to be able to watch it. BTV servers are computers, they run on Windows, there are literally tens (if not hundreds) of millions of hardware, driver and software configuration possibilities. No company (even Microsoft) can guarantee that their software will work with a specific hardware configuration, out of the box.

b) I had video and audio stuttering on playback when recording two analog channels while playing back one HDTV program (using one Dvico PCI card and one ATI HDTV WONDER tuner card as described.)

Gee, I wonder why, 2 software encoding tuners and one HD file playing back at the same time? I don't think that anybody here told you that that would work. Two hardware tuners, with HD playing back - yes. But 2 software tuners with HD playback - maybe at the best.

The systems that some of the guys and gals in this forum are on the leading edge and pushing the technology envelope. Others like me have a basic single tuner system. All will tell you that they have had or are having issues with certain aspects of their BTV based system, but they solved the problems with the help of others in this community.

BB

[w2jo]

Originally Posted by Bigbird999

And if they had told you what worked for them, ......I guess you would be blaming SS for it not working.

BB

Well.. Yes.. If SS said that a specific hardware configuration DID work with their software, then I would genuinely expect that they HAD tested this configuration with their software and that it DID work! That is the PURPOSE of a vendor having a "benchmark hardware configuration" that users can DEPEND on working properly with specific software.

In fact, all of us know that BTV working with specific tuners, multiple tuners, and other hardware is EXTREMELY DEPENDENT on getting the right hardware configuration. I have identified about six different hardware configurations that DO NOT work properly in a PVR system with BTV. It seems reasonable that Beyond TV would identify ONE hardware configuration that is KNOWN to work properly with some combination of multiple HDTV tuners. Is that asking too much?

Originally Posted by Bigbird999

No company (even Microsoft) can guarantee that their software will work with a specific hardware configuration, out of the box.
BB

The above statement is NOT TRUE. Every company I have worked with has had several "benchmark PC configurations" that are known and tested to work with their software product. BTV could easily help their customers avoid pitfalls in selecting an initial configuration. It makes good business sense and would help new system builders avoid the pitfalls being discussed here. No one is asking for a WARRANTY.. Just for expert GUIDANCE in selecting a first cut system configuration that they will not regret later. Who is in a better position to know all the right hardware than SnapStream? Just for example, MythTV has a benchmark hardware configuration that is checked out for operation with their software system.

Originally Posted by Bigbird999

Gee, I wonder why, 2 software encoding tuners and one HD file playing back at the same time? I don't think that anybody here told you that that would work. Two hardware tuners, with HD playing back - yes. But 2 software tuners with HD playback - maybe at the best.
BB

I now know that what you say above is correct.. But this fact is not obvious to a new system builder. And.. people on the forum DID at one time tell me that two Dvico HDTV5 GOLD PCI tuners would work in all three of my motherboards! And they would not. And people DID NOT suggest that the several tuners would not work for analog recording because the tuners did not have a hardware encoder for analog. I learned that the hard way!

May I humbly suggest that new system builders will NOT know all of the questions to ask about hardware selection needed to achieve a problem free configuration. And.. System builders are not well served by each one having to sort through a series of hardware configurations to finally end up with one that works.

I can confirm that I got a LOT of GOOD information, and a lot of BAD information and a lot of information with key facts left out when I attempted to gain information via this BTV user forum to assist me in building a system. For that reason, Authoritative Application Notes are needed from SnapStream for their BTV products to aid new system builders in initial equipment selection.

Finally... I am not mad at SS.. I think they have good software. But there is just no excuse for allowing every new system builder to stumble through a maze of possible workable system configurations when professional advice from SnapStream engineers would make the build job easy!

[karhill]

Instead of ranting and raving about how everyone mislead you, perhaps you coud do something positive, like post the lastest Dvico drivers you got (mentioned above). That would be helpful.

[w2jo]

Oh.. As you will note if you read carefully the above. I did not (even for a moment) rant and rave about being misled. I just stated the facts.

The main thrust of my entire discussion is that SnapStream is doing their customers a gross disservice, and costing all of us a lot of time and money by failing to provide an engineering approved "baseline hardware configuration" that they know will optimally work with multiple PCI/PCIe tuners.

We all know that BTV will work pretty well with a lot of motherboards with just ONE tuner. Many of the postings on this forum suggest that "most any" 2.0ghz+ MB will work with multiple tuners". But those of us who have tried it know that IN THE GENERAL CASE this is not so. (Just read this thread for information contridicting this from several knowledgable people.)

But there MUST be some hardware configuration (MB/CPU+video card+MEM+tuner card(s)) that SS engineers believe is "optimum" for multiple tuner applications with their software. I cannot think of a single reason why SS would not want to provide one or more of such configurations for use of their customers so as to prevent "us customers" from encountering the maze of (costly and time consuming) system configurations that have to be tried and abandoned when they fail to work properly in every needed operating mode. (I note again that apparently the most taxing operating mode appears to be recording multiple analog channels while displaying an HD program in 1080i/p. So I think if they provided a hardware list optimized for that operating mode, it would work for all.. But then, SS engineers would best know the highest load configurations. That is why SS is best equipped to present such a "baseline hardware configuration".

As to the Dvico pre-beta dll that fixes the multi tuner problem.. Providing it to others will likely only cause more grief. I am sure when Dvico gets it fully functional on "all" MBs, they will release it.

[jkirk]

you are missing one thing.

recomending of hw

motherboard- multiple revisions of one motherboard / multiple revisions of firmware / multiple revisions of drivers / minor bugs that may or may not show themselves at any given time

cards(tuner graphics etc)- different versions of firmware/ different versions of drivers/ differing revisions of cards

cpu- pretty much standardized except the possibility of on die mistakes/bugs(for lack of better terminology.) even though a cpu is essentially the same, minor differences between lots can change behavior.

memory- not standardized in the least, one company can install any number of other companies memory chips onboard on each. lot/batch performance differs accordingly

even though snapstream can come out and say we used x motherboard with y cards and z cpu and memory they cannot guarantee that you will be able to use it with no problems even though they did. also they will have no knowledge as to the condition of windows when their software is installed. as a result you are in the same boat as everyone else look at their specs and keep trying until it works.

case in point pvr2(in my sig) can run btv4 perfectly(with the nv6600 in pvr2 installed) no skips no lag no problems.
i then decided to build a faster system(that looks less like a computer so i built pvr1 and refurbished pvr2 as a btv3.x machine) i have had nothing but problems with my pvr1 setup since i built it but i am still working to get it taken care of. i can't blame snapstream that it don't work properly because i took the cheap route and what i bought runs like crap. some of this is probably heat related but not all of it. some is probably corruption on the hd from all the crashes i have had.

[w2jo]

I have no quarrel with what you say above. That is, excepting if I build a system and get it working and YOU build exactly the same system, then YOU should be able to get the same configuration working with the same features (and defects) as the system I built. These computers and software systems are not "magic" or "haunted" though it may seem so. Any given configuration should give repeatable results. If not! Then there is a BIG design or quality problem somewhere that needs fixing! My own experiences with PCs is that when a software/hardware system is properly designed and configured, you can build thousands of them and they all work the same unless something is broken.

However.. Back to the issue of having a "baseline hardware configuration that is known to work". SOME specific guidance (kept updated as technology moves on) is a lot better than the generalized and nonspecific guidance that SS gives now which (if I believe what I read on this forum!) results in a gross number of people with problems getting their PVR to function properly. This stuff is not rocket science. It should be easy to generate a cookbook PVR using BTV and a well thought out and tested hardware configuration.

Just for the record, I am going to give what I think is a good solution to a dual tuner PVR for BTV. Still will not be flawless but workable.. I invite all who are (hopefully) much more experienced at this stuff than I am to chime in and critique my component selections.

Definition: The goal here is to clearly identify one (or more) benchmark hardware system(s) that will operate dual tuners in HDTV and analog mode into a fanless video card with output to the HDMI port on a HDTV television set without stutter or flaky operation with Beyond TV when the system is built by a new BTV system builder. Lets give these people some CONCRETE recommendations! .
=========================================
A DUAL TUNER CONFIGURATION THAT SHOULD GIVE GOOD RESULTS ON BOTH HDTV AND ANALOG RECEPTION AND PLAYBACK using Windows XP Professional.

• ASUS A8N-SLI PREMIUM Motherboard (AMD duo core compatible, has both PCI and PCIe slots and can be equipped to be fanless for quiet)
• AMD A64 X2 4200+ (Ghz equivalent) dual core CPU (socket 939 version!)
• 1GB DDR 400 RAM (ECC preferred)
• (&&) Gigabyte Fanless Nvidia Geforce 7600GS PCIe video card (driver 91.31) running in single display mode
• Snapstream codecs
• (&&&) 2 ATI Theater 650 HDTV/analog tuners with hardware encoder to minimize CPU load on analog recordings (need latest drivers)
• 300GByte (x2) Maxtor MaxLine SATA hard drives operated in RAID 1 mode (Just 1 can be used if you do not want the RAID)
• 300Gbyte Maxtor Diamond Max IDE or SATA hard drive (if needed for added program storage. You can use 2 in a RAID config if you wish).
• Antec Sonata 0761345-15138-2 black case 350 watt PSU (very quiet case and PSU fans).
• AVI to HDMI cable to connect video output to HDMI input on TV.
• mini stereo phone plug to dual RCA plug cable to connect audio to TV (Surround sound also available but I did not use this.)

Notes: (&&) I also tried the GigaByte/ATI GV-RX16P256DE fanless Radeon X1600 pro video card. It also works fine but I could not use the furnished Catalyst control software as it caused excessive CPU load. Just load the drivers and use the windows display setup in single display mode with your DVI to HDMI cable works best. Also, when a fanless HDMI output video card becomes available, that might be a good choice.

(&&&) I did not test the dual configuration of these cards, but my mail from a variety of people says that a pair of these ATI cards are the best tuners available now for dual tuner configurations as they a) will work fine together and b) have a hardware encoder for analog recording to take the load off the CPU. Still these cards do not have CableCard capability and so you cannot record encripted QAM programs directly with this configuration. As of 11/8/2006 there are no standalone PCI or PCIe tuners with cable card capability. Maybe when VISTA is out for awhile???
======================================

Please step right up with your CONSTRUCTIVE CRITIQUES!

[tscales]

That machine is MORE then adequate. If there are problems, then I wouldn't point to BTV itself.

For example, I have a Dell Dimension 8400. It's a couple years old. P4-3.2.

I configured it with 8 tuners. 4 HD (2x Dvico USB, 1x Dvico Lite PCI, 1x ATI 650) and 4 SD (2x Hauppauge PVR-USB2, 1x PVR-500 Dual tuner).

It worked absolutely flawlessly. 8 concurrent recordings.

I see one major problem with the approach many people are taking. I don't believe the server should also drive the TV. Playback is very intensive.

Two less expensive machines (one server, one client) is much more effective. The D8400 can be bought refurbed/used for $400. My Dell Optiplex GX620 USFF that I use as clients can be bought used for under $300.

Rock solid.

One area I would not skimp is bandwidth. I went to the trouble to run wire and every one of my machines has gigabit.

I also added a much older Dimension 4550 as my data server.

Configuration:

- Recording server records. Post-processing routine moves the recordings to the Data Server

- Data server provides content. It runs a copy of BTV, but only to provide content to Link clients. No tuners. It has a 750GB IDE WD drive that is perfect for this.

- TV Clients. GX620 running off the D4550 Data server. I have three (three TV's). The 24" Dell monitor runs off the data server, so I often have four clients at a time.

It's not a huge investment. Certainly less than some people put in to build a pretty machine (although the little USFF GX620 are pretty attractive).

Since I set this up, I split out the SD tuners to another old Dimension 4550. I did this not because it wasn't working, but because I wanted redundancy. I record shows I really care about in both SD and HD. If either machine goes down, I still have the show. I end up trashing all the SD shows, but who knows.

Tom

[w2jo]

I like your setup! I think the client/server arrangement has a lot going for it. I am surprised that there are no problems if 8 tuners are recording at the same time. It must be that not many are analog without hardware encoding as recording a couple of analog shows simultaneously can run to 40% CPU utilization on my systems. But then if most of the shows are from digital sources, things should be much less intense. You might educate us on the CPU utilization of your recording server when recording various types of program combinations.
Thanks!