The future of Beyond TV and SnapStream

[nrf]

don't underestimate sage - they have already figured out a way to pass the recording request over to MC and grab the results. a good fallback if there is no direct way to do it.

[ZetaVu]

I have to agree, paid pvr software is in a precarious position. The free applications (Media Portal, Mythtv, etc) are catching up with BTV and Sage, and Media Center is locking in things like cablecard. Sure, Sage can pass a request over to WMC to use cablecard, but my question is why? What does Sage offer that WMC doesn't at that point? Why should I fork over $100 to use something with a program that came installed on my OS (all W7 has WMC)? Free software makes sense, you can get minor tweaks etc but how do you justify $100 for something that is just different than what you already have?

Then again the build your own htpc market in my opinion has its days numbered. As a tivo replacement it seemed logical, buying the tivo unit and paying a subscription vs building an htpc and no subscription. Now Cable and Satellite DVR's are available (Fios lets you record 4 shows and stream anywhere in your house) and to compete with WMC I think they'll get better. I also see the potential for $200-400 mythboxes, either extenders or servers, or simple boxes recording to NAS. SS is right about one thing, the technology is mature, and building a 1tb 4-tuner box preloaded would be easy and cost effective. (Hd PVr extra). Any of these appliances will be linux based, so Sage and BTV are out there (Sage linux offerings are not all that hot).

Then of course as more people switch to online content, what the hell will you need a PVR for anyway? Netflix already has their subscription streaming, I expect they will expand that and offer premium streaming. Hulu is going to end up subscription. Eventually anyone without decent OTA is going to get all their shows online (or supplement free tuners) and cable and satellite will shrink away.

[cfaslave]

I have to smile when I read those "HTPC's are dead" comments like that. We've been reading those types of speculation since.... well since BeyondTV was born really. Could it happen? Yes. Will it happen? probably not any time soon.

Snapstream has given up on the HTPC market from a consumer perspective (my opinion and speculation based on the original post in this thread) because they felt they were too far behind to compete with Media Center. I personally think that's partially because they over-estimated Microsoft with Vista but that's for another discussion. They've done a very good job of finding a profitably niche (Enterprise) and going with it.

• Windows Media Center is slightly better with W7 then it was with Vista, but not by much imo. Someone explain to me why it is better than it was with Vista?
• Can you do true server/client setups with WMC? NO
• Is there a viable extender for WMC? NO (I don't consider Xbox a usable extender in most homes)
• Does MS update for bugs and respond to the community more often than a few times a year at the very best? NO

I could continue, but won't. I think Microsoft Media Center is great for the hobbiest who wants to throw a tuner in their computer and sit it next to their one TV. Or someone who wants to use their gaming machine already by their TV and connect it to their computer somewhere else in the home. But it is crippled by Microsoft so that someone who has multiple TVs in the home and wants a unified setup without workarounds and such can't use it.

BeyondTV does TV better than MediaCenter even today. SageTV in my opinion is the best all-around HTPC with the most flexibility (and yes that means complication too). SageTV has a great, rock-solid HD-PVR implementation now (after bunches of betas) and a great extender model and now beta access to CableCard as well as Hulu/Netflix/Amazon VOD.

And XBMC, MediaPortal and MeediOS, Plex etc. all are great alternatives as well as long as TV isn't that important to you. Might I ever use MediaCenter in my home (beyond the testing I do with my Windows 7 MC box)? Only if they allow a BTV Link type functionality and only if they begin to sell good extenders. Otherwise I'd sooner switch to TIVO or something like that. I know there are some who don't take the HTPC thing as serious as me and some of those folks would be perfectly happy with WMC or a TIVO for that matter - it's just not for me and not for many others like me.

PS: The HTPC "market" is such a tiny niche it isn't a profitable "market" for anyone but a very small company like Snapstream or SageTV. Microsoft has it as a "paint-like" program tacked onto their OS for a reason and that reason is to give them a little value-add to sell more copies of their OS and stay in the thick of things in case something changes significantly shaking up things and expanding the market.
/end rant

[Nick Burns]

Plus, you have to deal with all that M$ DRM crap, where the content creators at any time may issue the 'broadcast flag' and prevent WMC from recording. No thanks.

[ZetaVu]

My comments deferring to WMC were strictly for the cablecard, which so far only will work with WMC and if that is the case, then what's the additional value of another program. If you're looking at a distributed network, then yes, Sage with extenders would qualify, but I'd be shocked if there weren't as many options for WMC (again, maybe not livetv, but will livetv work with cablecard in Sage?)

Regarding the future of the HTPC, I don't mean it is dead in as much as I don't see it growing, in fact I see the paid apps shrinking, because WMC and other free apps (and I qualify WMC as a free app since it is included in all versions of W7, whereas most of us with XP do not have MC) have also matured enough to where if someone were a hobbyist, that's what they would start with first and then consider the Sages or BTV's. When I started iwth BTV, MC was a joke, and the free apps were no where close to the performance of BTV. Now, I think while there are some setup issues (specifically channel and guide) that need to be addressed, I don't see why any of the free htpc solutions can't give comparable performance to Sage and BTV. If I were starting to tweak now I wouldn't even look at paid applications, and people I know who recently started building htpc's did that exactly. They started with something free, then evaluated Sage and decided why spend the extra money?

Regarding the market for devices, I think it is long overdue that preloaded systems start coming out. This is where I think Sage and BTV should have gone, at least Sage since they can make a linux version of the server. (SS has sort of done this with their mini enterprise server). Basically a prebuilt media server, add USB tuners if you want, add additional storage if you want. Add extenders if you want. A complete htpc front end, and ability to use it as a regular computer or just a dedicated server. Don't even mess with it, just bulk license the software to a Dell or any vendor.

And then there's the whole Braodcast flag/DRM battle. How soon before all digital output is HDMI only and locked with HDCP? How soon before OTA gets locked down with new legislation? How soon before all shows are streamed on a per show per view basis? How soon before Tivo files lawsuits against PVR software saying they violate their patents? Never underestimate the greed and determination of Douchebags. (just watched that I'm a douchebag clip at Funnyordie)

[cfaslave]

I wasn't directly responding to just you Zeta, but you make some good points that I'll respond to:

Originally Posted by ZetaVu

but I'd be shocked if there weren't as many options for WMC

Be shocked then because there aren't as many options for WMC.

(again, maybe not livetv, but will livetv work with cablecard in Sage?)

Yep, LiveTV works pretty darn good with the cablecard workaround. It's not a perfect and not native, but it does work.

I don't see why any of the free htpc solutions can't give comparable performance to Sage and BTV.

They really don't though. WMC is better than the true free apps for TV as is BTV and SageTV. Not saying they won't some day, but their odds of keeping up with a MS or SageTV on the always changing TV front is slim imo.

If I were starting to tweak now I wouldn't even look at paid applications, and people I know who recently started building htpc's did that exactly. They started with something free, then evaluated Sage and decided why spend the extra money?

Really? Ever tried TV/PVR functions with any of the free apps? Even with MC try setting up commercial skip or dropping a movie in any non-MS format to play in MC. Try starting a recording on HTPC 1 in the home and resuming that same show on HTPC 2 in the home.

Regarding the market for devices, I think it is long overdue that preloaded systems start coming out. This is where I think Sage and BTV should have gone, at least Sage since they can make a linux version of the server. (SS has sort of done this with their mini enterprise server). Basically a prebuilt media server, add USB tuners if you want, add additional storage if you want. Add extenders if you want. A complete htpc front end, and ability to use it as a regular computer or just a dedicated server.

I think this is something that we will see some day soon.

And then there's the whole Braodcast flag/DRM battle. How soon before all digital output is HDMI only and locked with HDCP? How soon before OTA gets locked down with new legislation? How soon before all shows are streamed on a per show per view basis?

All possible, but so is world peace

How soon before Tivo files lawsuits against PVR software saying they violate their patents?

According to some buddies very close to that story they haven't gone after the software PVRs because they can't - the lawsuits they've been issuing and winning are based on a very fine argument that wouldn't work on BTV, SageTV or WMC.

You could be right about it all Zeta. I think the biggest threat to HTPCs is the cable and satellite companies move towards more features such as multi-room. That is the real threat, but we aren't there yet at least.

[mayhem70]

Wow I go on vacation for a week and Zack sneaks in and finally gives us the somber news. Well I will echo the rest of the loyalists, and say thanks. Thanks for a great product. But I'll probably stay on for a while as well with BTV. As many of you said, it does work and as long we get EPG...I'm quite content.

With that said. I'm actually quite positive on the future of BTV Enterprise/Consumer.

Our focus (by which we mean "what we are working on now") is on polishing our technology to work in the enterprise space in support of our Television Search Appliance. In terms of current new development, this means a new backend tailored to expandability/reliability and writing a ground up new api.

That right there excites me (probably shouldn't really admit that...). And that where I want the details or roadmap of when you all get to that point...or maybe give us beta testers a preview.

[ZetaVu]

Actually regarding the free tv apps, Like I told you before two friends have built htpc's recently, onw in media Protal and one in Myth. Both are working fine for tv recording and learning the plugins for comskip etc are no more difficult. They are writing up their how to's for me and I'm going to try and duplicate their efforts (I of course being spoiled by BTV and somewhat familiar with Sage). I had started doing some work with Media Portal before but got annoyed or distracted and stopped. Both also have link type front ends for other computers, so maybe around the holidays when things are quiet I can give them a full run similar to my Sage experiment. From what I've seen on their systems, they don't look too shabby.

Of course being spoiled with BTV I'll probably find a list of pet peeves...

[cfaslave]

Forgot about MythTV. It's pretty good with TV if you're technically inclined for all things linux. But the others aren't acceptable for TV - at least they weren't when I did my last roundup this summer.

[hmb29]

i have to say it is sad news, but I got my money's worth.

i'm still going to use btv as my main recording engine, but may finally fine tune Media Portal, Boxee, XBMC or whatever front end I end up with.

I guess all this new technology will eventually get to me, but I'm content with SD content, over the air ATSC and clear QAM. That plus my netflix subscription and the DVD Library for Beyond Media has me pretty content.

hopefully some of this new stuff they are doing on Enterprise will get to the consumers, seems like the clustering stuff would be interesting. have one box record all day and another ShowSqueeze and then a third for storage or something like that would be cool.

[Freddy5]

I started my adventure in HTPC back in late 2004 with MythTV and could never really get it to reliably work. So in 2005 I looked at BeyondTV and SageTV. It actually took me quite a few trial licenses to actually decide which one to go with. BeyondTV was winning me over with their slick UI that was so nice to use, but I was left feeling inadequate with the features compared to SageTV.

In the end, I actually chose SageTV because their community was incredibly active in development of plugins and customizations to make the product better. I think that their addition of hardware extenders and their placeshifter was the best idea they ever had and really solidified their position.

Never in a million years would I go with Media Center as it is currently developed. Far too restrictive, their development is slow and, for God's sake, the 360 can't even play BD rips (maybe that is fixed now, but I doubt it).

I am sorry to see BeyondTV leave the consumer space, I think it provided a healthy competition to keep innovation moving forward. In the end, I know I made the right decision with SageTV.

[hmb29]

Originally Posted by Freddy5

I started my adventure in HTPC back in late 2004 with MythTV and could never really get it to reliably work. So in 2005 I looked at BeyondTV and SageTV. It actually took me quite a few trial licenses to actually decide which one to go with. BeyondTV was winning me over with their slick UI that was so nice to use, but I was left feeling inadequate with the features compared to SageTV.

In the end, I actually chose SageTV because their community was incredibly active in development of plugins and customizations to make the product better. I think that their addition of hardware extenders and their placeshifter was the best idea they ever had and really solidified their position.

Never in a million years would I go with Media Center as it is currently developed. Far too restrictive, their development is slow and, for God's sake, the 360 can't even play BD rips (maybe that is fixed now, but I doubt it).

I am sorry to see BeyondTV leave the consumer space, I think it provided a healthy competition to keep innovation moving forward. In the end, I know I made the right decision with SageTV.

BAN! ! ! .... just kidding

[rugby]

Since I only have OTA HD I've found that BTV just *works*. I run it integrated with WMC 7 and it's fine although it looks hideous compared to WMC (and this is coming from a Mac guy).

I'm not leaving until it doesn't *work*.

[BebopBlues]

Eh, not really news here. Those who really wanted something more out of BTV already jumped ship to SageTV or WMC. Those who stick with BTV won't really be disappointed since they are happy with it as it is anyway.

But I'm glad I jumped ship years ago to SageTV, a company that treat its customers well, still in very active development (core software and community plugins), has affordable HD extenders, and an awesome community forum. You guys will be surprise to see how many BTV users switched to SageTV over the years, myself included.

Originally Posted by YogiBaboo

It's time to say goodbye. You will be closing your shop soon.

QFT.

[Nick Burns]

Originally Posted by YogiBaboo

It's time to say goodbye. You will be closing your shop soon.

Before doing that, my hope/belief is that they'll return to their loyal customers and start producing upgrades to BeyondTV.

I can only hope.