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View Full Version : Why only OTA HDTV?


ArcticWhite
08-05-2006, 12:18 PM
Since component video is analog and can carry a high def signal, why can't we get High Def BTV with satellite receivers that output HD component video?

Seems to me all you would need is a PVR card that accepts component video and has the bandwidth to capture high def. No more complex that svideo or composite right now.

HomeyFour
08-05-2006, 12:24 PM
I think the issue is the bandwidth required to capture is extreme... not to mention the horsepower which would be required to encode real-time.

ArcticWhite
08-05-2006, 02:21 PM
Wouldn't the bandwidth be the same as OTA HDTV?

I'm already moving away from BTV because of this issue. I've had to get a sat PVR to deal with my HDTV content and use BTV for non-HDTV. It would be SO nice if BTV could do it all.

Rich A
08-05-2006, 03:43 PM
Wouldn't the bandwidth be the same as OTA HDTV?

I'm already moving away from BTV because of this issue. I've had to get a sat PVR to deal with my HDTV content and use BTV for non-HDTV. It would be SO nice if BTV could do it all.

OTA digital is simply written directly to your hard drive. No encoding envolved. It's a streaming mpeg-2 transport stream.

So technically OTA digital / HD capture is VERY low over-head. Even lower than a hardware based Mpeg-2 encoder.

merrypig
08-05-2006, 04:42 PM
"all you would need is a PVR card that accepts component video and has the bandwidth to capture high def."

Which isn't as simple as it sounds. Most MPEG2 encoder asics are designed to handle D1 formats. Only recent ones are starting to arrive with support for HDTV but because the memory needs and processing power required are 2,4,8 times that of D1 - it usually has knock on effects on the cost of the hardware and they aren't cheap yet.

TV Scheduler
08-05-2006, 06:45 PM
I would think that the term HD would lose it's meaning in conversion back to digital from analog.

There is, for me, a line where a scene in HD Wows me but goes by unnoticed at DVD quality.

I have seen mpegs called HD where the file size is half of what it should be. On my 42" TV that video still had that Wow quality. That might not be the case on a bigger screen but sometimes better is good enough.


If the sampling rate is high enough for the first ten seconds of 'Serenity' to Wow me... Well send me the hardware and a source filter cuz it's good enough!


Bob

guncam_man
08-07-2006, 05:06 PM
Someone (hauppauge) needs to make a component/HDMI input MPEG-4 encoder.

That would be awesome.

EDIT: I'm not too worried about the digital to analog back to digital conversion, because the analog signal will be pretty clean. I just want to record some DiscoverHD Theatre.

Fonceur
08-07-2006, 05:43 PM
While a single SATA-2 drive can handle the uncompressed stream in burst mode, it wouldn't be able to sustain it... So you would need some arrays of SATA-2 drives in a raid 5 configuration, then probably some dual core CPU an such to compress it back to a reasonable size... It can be done for 7-8k, but it simply isn't worth it at the consumer's level... Go search on the AVS forums if you want the numbers or the name of the professional equipment to do it...

TV Scheduler
08-07-2006, 06:43 PM
I know very little about this product (http://www.avid.com/products/liquidpro) It looks like it might be useful but it doesn't look like there's not going to be any shiny new toys in my future.

Bob

guncam_man
08-08-2006, 09:56 AM
I know very little about this product (http://www.avid.com/products/liquidpro) It looks like it might be useful but it doesn't look like there's not going to be any shiny new toys in my future.

BobOn the surface it looks like what I want, but a $999 pricetag is pretty steep..

Rich A
08-08-2006, 05:39 PM
Actually it's another over-priced editor. With their 200 dollar rebate, it's ONLY 799. :aldnce:

TV Scheduler
08-08-2006, 06:15 PM
Actually it's another over-priced editor. With their 200 dollar rebate, it's ONLY 799. :aldnce:

It doesn't have the filters needed to build a capture graph using its component input?


Bob

Rich A
08-08-2006, 06:30 PM
It doesn't have the filters needed to build a capture graph using its component input?


Bob

Don't know Bob, but it's purpose in life seems to be primarily editing video. I'll have to read up on it. Perhaps you can take some component video and feed it, but I believe that is so you can edit the captured video. Don't know how it would integrate into a PVR type setup ??

<edit> Checked out this in more detail. It's what I expected. A commercial quality video editing solution for post production work. This "liquid" thing seems to the be middle of three packages. To quote their web site,

Avid Liquid family
Powerful video editing and I/O flexibility

"Avid Liquid software is a powerful SD and HD video editor for the PC that combines integrated DVD authoring, surround-sound audio processing, and thousands of amazing effects in one application. Designed for the real-world video production, the family of Avid Liquid products offers an extensive range of fully integrated hardware options for guaranteed, high-quality performance."


I think something like Womble's editor can better fill a consurmer's need for editing HD video at 1/4 the price. Of course the "deal" they have is an input device so you can get the video into the computer.

TV Scheduler
08-08-2006, 09:24 PM
Don't know how it would integrate into a PVR type setup ??

That part is easy... if it has the right filters. I could make my FireWire capture app do the job with very little effort.

What bothers me is that if this thing could capture component video as an mpeg with better then DVD quality, wouldn't they want leak the information to increase sales?

Bob

ArcticWhite
08-29-2006, 06:31 PM
So basically I am out of luck until someone develops a way to take the digital stream directly from a sat box, like from the DVI stream. I can't believe no one has done this yet. There has to be a lot of people running HTPC's that want HD and don't have access to OTA or want more than OTA.

I built a 3800 dual core, dual tuner, 500GB SATA raid box with BTV and have used it for the last year. Loved it. Now I've upgraded to a high def projector and SD just looks like crap. I thought I sized the HTPC for HD, but looks like I have to use the dish PVR for the high def and the HTPC for SD. Real PITA setup, swapping between two systems for recording.

Rich A
08-29-2006, 06:55 PM
My own personal opinion is that the suppliers of the set-top converter boxes (cable/sat companies) don't want you to be able to off-load from their converters anything better than S-Video. They want to sell you their "own" PVR box.

Or perhaps it's a technological thing. I suppose it's pretty easy have composite or S-video output, but in order to keep the high resolution of HD transmissions they would have to use Component output at the least. Maybe it's a demand thing .. not enough interest, so why incorporate it?

Yes it's aggravating for those of us who want to record and playback something other than OTA signals.

TV Scheduler
08-29-2006, 07:35 PM
So basically I am out of luck until someone develops a way to take the digital stream directly from a sat box, like from the DVI stream. I can't believe no one has done this yet. There has to be a lot of people running HTPC's that want HD and don't have access to OTA or want more than OTA.

There is http://169time.com. It's a FireWire thing. Some have made it work for them but I gave up and went to cable.

Bob

Fonceur
08-29-2006, 08:13 PM
There is also a better alternative to 169time, the R5000-HD at...

http://www.nextcomwireless.com/r5000/home.htm

dwoloz
08-30-2006, 04:05 PM
I'm looking for something like this as well (just with cable instead of satellite)

I'd like to get digital out from the cable box rather than analog and pipe that into the computer

Bigbird999
08-30-2006, 04:24 PM
I'd like to get digital out from the cable box rather than analog and pipe that into the computer (file:///G:/Projects/HD%20H264%20Tests/SC3quickfix.ts)

You and about 10 million others. It can't be done by mere mortals.

BB
(file:///G:/Projects/HD%20H264%20Tests/SC3quickfix.ts)

Rich A
08-30-2006, 07:36 PM
I'm looking for something like this as well (just with cable instead of satellite)

I'd like to get digital out from the cable box rather than analog and pipe that into the computer

That's where firewire could be used. But first you gotta have a QAM capable tuner.

TV Scheduler
08-30-2006, 07:46 PM
(file:///G:/Projects/HD%20H264%20Tests/SC3quickfix.ts)

You and about 10 million others. It can't be done by mere mortals.

BB
(file:///G:/Projects/HD%20H264%20Tests/SC3quickfix.ts)


I know I have powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men, but...

Ya wanna bet?

Ya start with a Motorola DCT-6200 from the cable guys.

Ya install the NVIDIA PureVideo Decoder (http://www.nvidia.com/object/dvd_decoder_1.02-223-trial.html) for the TSinfo filter.

Ya plug in the FireWire cable.

Ya install the drivers (http://tvscheduler.net/FireWireDrivers.zip).

Ya run the Scan app (http://tvscheduler.net/FireWireChannelSeek.zip).

Ya look for channels that don't use 5C.

Ya run the capture app. (http://tvscheduler.net/FireWireCapture.zip)

Bob

Bigbird999
08-30-2006, 08:21 PM
But the channels that don't use 5C are available OTA anyway.
It seems to me that most people who say that they want to record the digital output from their cable box want digital transfer of the encoded stuff.

BB

TV Scheduler
08-30-2006, 09:27 PM
But the channels that don't use 5C are available OTA anyway.
It seems to me that most people who say that they want to record the digital output from their cable box want digital transfer of the encoded stuff.

BB


That's not true here, but it may be the case in your area. I have two FireWire recorders running right now. The third is using S-Video along with two ATSC recorders capturing local HD.

I'd love to have the list of channels from anyone that ran the scan along with their zipcode and cable company.

Bob

Rich A
08-30-2006, 09:35 PM
I know I have powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men, but...

Ya wanna bet?

Ya start with a Motorola DCT-6200 from the cable guys.

Ya install the NVIDIA PureVideo Decoder (http://www.nvidia.com/object/dvd_decoder_1.02-223-trial.html) for the TSinfo filter.

Ya plug in the FireWire cable.

Ya install the drivers (http://tvscheduler.net/FireWireDrivers.zip).

Ya run the Scan app (http://tvscheduler.net/FireWireChannelSeek.zip).

Ya look for channels that don't use 5C.

Ya run the capture app. (http://tvscheduler.net/FireWireCapture.zip)

Bob

Does this integrate with my SnapStream PVR software? This "is" a Snapstream forum and your solution looks to be using something else. How does it help us here ??

TV Scheduler
08-30-2006, 10:37 PM
Does this integrate with my SnapStream PVR software? This "is" a Snapstream forum and your solution looks to be using something else. How does it help us here ??


There is a FireWire capture system for BTV and there's a FireWire channel changing system for BTV. And now there is a method of testing for channels that are not blocked by 5C which I wrote to answer the question about digital recordings from cable boxes.

Do you have a problem with my helping BTV users?

Bob